Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

techrepublic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 191 posts

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#21

Post by Kwpolska »

craigsmansion wrote: post #7
znpy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding knoppix abandoning it... Meh. Knoppix is a live system, so all of the things systemd was designed for don't apply. I guess it can make sense for their knoppix's use case.

Knoppix is very installable and usable as a main operating system. Knoppix claim to fame is automatic configuration. If your Xorg or sound was giving you grief after a fresh install, you'd live boot Knoppix and copy the configuration files back to your installation. From this p.o.v. it makes sense for Knoppix' use case, because, as stated by Klaus Knopper: "This bypasses systemd's interference with many system compon…

> Knoppix claim to fame is automatic configuration. If your Xorg or sound was giving you grief after a fresh install, you'd live boot Knoppix and copy the configuration files back to your installation.

Is it really so? I would expect all distributions to have stolen that feature by now. Xorg works out of the box basically everywhere. I've had a glitch with a microphone on a 3-pin jack on a Ubuntu system, and I doubt Knoppix would have known that a modprobe config change was needed.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#22

Post by labawi »

nickserv wrote: post #13
rwmj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd is a perfectly fine init system. The problem is that it comes bundled with a whole bunch of other tools for handling networks, cron, ntp, etc which really ought to be separate projects. By bundling them with the successful init system they're not exposed to the usual Darwinian selection processes that shake out the best free software.

They're separate binaries, and can be easily unbundled. That they're part of the same project is actually a win for me, it helps to make the various components work well together. Also there is a common thread or philosophy in how things are built, making learning easier. In fact "the system is a single project" approach reminds me of the BSDs, which is arguably better than Linux as far as usability and security is c…

Unification wouldn't be a such an issue, if it was done with forethought, design and consistency, like BSDs tend to have.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#23

Post by interfixus »

nickserv wrote: post #15
mepian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's okay to flaunt your ignorance if you can claim that your peers are ignorant as well, I guess. Knoppix was one of the first, if not the first, popular live CD distributions.

The other day at the office, I was the only one that had heard of, let alone used, Slackware. I am also the oldest in the team, this is probably no coincidence.

I have worked at more than one place where I was the only one who had heard of Linux. I skip paraphrasing the 'let alone used' part, for of course everyone was using it in their routers and phones and proverbial toasters.

It is my clear impression that many Windows users would be hard pressed to explain what 'Windows' is and does.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#24

Post by qubex »

goatinaboat wrote: post #9
qubex wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur with your characterisation of systemd as “ doing one thing, and doing it well ”. Those who seem to malign it most are those who are, for historical reasons, profoundly conversant with the myriad daemons, configurations, and init systems (generally) of “old UNIX/Linux”. They have a point and a genuine axe to grind, I’ll concede, but systemd is an enormous simplifier for those who are recent to the scene: lear…

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

No it isn’t. Firstly: they weren’t the originators of systemd, they simply hired the guy who first developed it to continue developing it. Secondly: it: being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it and not be due anything to Red Hat. Thirdly, it isn’t extinguishing anything as a business strategy; it’s just out-competing alternatives in the “mindshare” arena.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#25

Post by brianpgordon »

goatinaboat wrote: post #9
qubex wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur with your characterisation of systemd as “ doing one thing, and doing it well ”. Those who seem to malign it most are those who are, for historical reasons, profoundly conversant with the myriad daemons, configurations, and init systems (generally) of “old UNIX/Linux”. They have a point and a genuine axe to grind, I’ll concede, but systemd is an enormous simplifier for those who are recent to the scene: lear…

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

Even if you grant some sinister motive on the part of Red Hat (which I do not), the analogy doesn't work. EEE requires some existing technology to embrace. Lennart Poettering built systemd from the ground up. And everything is open-source and done with the collaboration of the community anyway.

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#26

Post by [deleted] »

goatinaboat wrote: post #9
qubex wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur with your characterisation of systemd as “ doing one thing, and doing it well ”. Those who seem to malign it most are those who are, for historical reasons, profoundly conversant with the myriad daemons, configurations, and init systems (generally) of “old UNIX/Linux”. They have a point and a genuine axe to grind, I’ll concede, but systemd is an enormous simplifier for those who are recent to the scene: lear…

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

[deleted]

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#27

Post by ninkendo »

pdkl95 wrote: post #17
znpy wrote: post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

> does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system "managing the system" is not "ONE [problem]". A big part of the problem with systemd is this presupposition that management of something as large and complex as a modern OS is a single monolithic[1] problem. > it's complex because it does a complex work. See, you agree that it's a complex problem! It's so complex with so many different use cases it isn't even p…

> it isn't even possible to have one solution, because some of those use cases are mutually exclusive

Could you elaborate? What of systemd’s use cases conflict with one another?

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#28

Post by einpoklum »

znpy wrote: post #3

I see a lot of hate about systems and I used to loathe it too. Then I took a course on systemd specifically and it opened my eyes, and now I'm quite fond about it. Systemd actually does ONE thing and does it well: it manages the system. It's the missing layer between kernel space and user space. It has quirks and bugs like all software, but I think it works very well, all things considered. To those who say that it's…

> Systemd actually does ONE thing

Yeah, except that the "one thing" it does is "everything".

Re: Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd

#30

Post by elygre »

qubex wrote: post #24
goatinaboat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd is Red Hat’s version of the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook.

No it isn’t. Firstly: they weren’t the originators of systemd, they simply hired the guy who first developed it to continue developing it. Secondly: it: being open source and GPL, anybody can use it or fork it and not be due anything to Red Hat. Thirdly, it isn’t extinguishing anything as a business strategy ; it’s just out-competing alternatives in the “mindshare” arena.

Without having much opinion on systemd, hiring the developer sounds very much like “embrace”. Continuing developing sounds like “extend”.
Post reply on HN