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Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

economist.com

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Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#21

Post by Angostura »

lopmotr wrote: post #15
sdoering wrote: post #14

I once worked for a Cruise Company for some months. I really am shocked at how naive I was back then, when I applied and worked there. Back then I had no idea how bad this form of travel is for the environment, for the visited cities, for the people working below deck, and so on. The people I worked with in the main office of the company were really energetic, loved their product, had a great time launching ship afte…

If you had the power, would you fire them and be the one to give them their notice in person? If they asked why, what would you tell them? "For your own good"?

Or perhaps he would put some serious effort into seeing how their work life could be improved and would work on improving the cruise’s environmental footprint

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#22

Post by fasicle »

sdoering wrote: post #14

I once worked for a Cruise Company for some months. I really am shocked at how naive I was back then, when I applied and worked there. Back then I had no idea how bad this form of travel is for the environment, for the visited cities, for the people working below deck, and so on. The people I worked with in the main office of the company were really energetic, loved their product, had a great time launching ship afte…

"How bad this form of travel is for... the visited cities"

I was holidaying in Split, Croatia when the MS Queen Elizabeth [1] docked and thousands of people descended onto the city from it.

The quiet city became absolutely packed with tour groups from the ship, completely ruined the atmosphere.

I guess the cruise tourists do bring in quite a bit of money from eating in the restaurants, buying souvenirs etc, so not that much of a negative for the locals.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Queen_Elizabeth

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#23

Post by 3finmunchousen »

lopmotr wrote: post #15
sdoering wrote: post #14

I once worked for a Cruise Company for some months. I really am shocked at how naive I was back then, when I applied and worked there. Back then I had no idea how bad this form of travel is for the environment, for the visited cities, for the people working below deck, and so on. The people I worked with in the main office of the company were really energetic, loved their product, had a great time launching ship afte…

If you had the power, would you fire them and be the one to give them their notice in person? If they asked why, what would you tell them? "For your own good"?

Yes because terminating someone's employment is the exact moral equivalent of treating someone with dignity in the workplace. Their vast numbers and lengthy shifts clearly imply that their contribution to the operation of the ship is negligible.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#24

Post by adaml_623 »

A question interesting to me: Are cruise ships worse or better than package, tour or individual holidays?

We have millions of people all over the world who want to travel and see the world and enjoy themselves. Assuming we don't ban individual travel we probably want to work out the most environmentally friendly (and socially responsible) way of enabling this.

A network of railway lines across the northern hemisphere connecting to a fleet of wind powered cruise ships? But paying staff a socially responsible wage might push the cost of a holiday up above the once a year point. And figuring in the real environmental cost would cause issues as well.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#25

Post by Angostura »

maccard wrote: post #8
Nursie wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries around the world seem to slowly be waking up to this - Cruise ships pollute like hell, make destinations crowded and less pleasant for residents and 'regular' tourists, and also attempt to capture all of the spending of their passengers anyway, limiting any economic benefits. European cities they frequent are some of the worst for SOx and NOx pollution on the continent and a single line, Carnival, emitted m…

> Carnival, emitted more than all of Europe's cars last year (by a factor of 10 IIRC). Something is always going to be the worst polluter. If the people who took a carnival cruise flew around the world instead, what would the impact be? (And what would happen to the fuel that those cruise ships are currently burning?) It's still a horriffic stat, but I'd love a nuanced discussion on it!

These figures are from 2006 - so you need to factor in improvements in engineering since then - but The Guardian crunched some figures and said

“According to our calculations, a cruiseliner such as Queen Mary 2 emits 0.43kg of CO2 per passenger mile, compared with 0.257kg for a long-haul flight (even allowing for the further damage of emissions being produced in the upper atmosphere”

So the answer would appear to be “jump on the plane”.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#26

Post by 0xfaded »

peteretep wrote: post #17

> paid for in US dollars, never the Haitian gourde Presumably the government is getting paid in US dollars too, which is a nice fx source > Haitians not employed by Royal Caribbean cannot enter. Can Haitians generally roam free on private property? > Caribbean countries are “basically giving away parcels of land” What now? Do we call all foreign private ownership "giving away"? Poor article from The Economist telling…

Most western countries don't allow beach ownership, and technically the US doesn't either but has its loop holes. Some European countries even have the "right to pass" over private land if required to access to public land.

I suppose the question worth asking is the average Haitian better off from the economic activity generated from the private parcel.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#27

Post by godid »

radicalbyte wrote: post #16

A cruise ship always strikes me as being a slightly more upscale caravan holiday. You're stuck in a metal box with either a lot of old middle class people or a load of drunk lower class yobs. Only unlike a caravan you're stuck on it.

Perhaps, if you shared a single caravan with hundreds of other people. But other than that I do not think it’s alike at all as you are not dependant on a crew for subsistence nor is your freedom to move/explore restricted in a caravan. Either way both can be very fun holidays if you are willing to see past class prejudices.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#28

Post by Nokinside »

Nursie wrote: post #5
idunno246 wrote: post #4

I’ve been to the Disney cruise private island. It’s interesting, there’s almost no full time employees there. The ship crew gets off and works the island while you are there. But even if you go on say an Alaska cruise, which is entirely in the USA, the “towns” that you stop in exist solely for the cruise ships. The stores are the same junk at every stop, often owned by the cruise lines, unless you walk to the edge an…

Countries around the world seem to slowly be waking up to this - Cruise ships pollute like hell, make destinations crowded and less pleasant for residents and 'regular' tourists, and also attempt to capture all of the spending of their passengers anyway, limiting any economic benefits. European cities they frequent are some of the worst for SOx and NOx pollution on the continent and a single line, Carnival, emitted m…

The Baltic Sea and the North Sea are Sulphur Emission Control Areas (SECA) and Nitrogen Oxide Emission Control Areas (NECAs). Ships in these areas required to use SOx scrubbers and NOx, reducing devices in new ships. Limits have been gradually tightened. I think they are now as low as 0.10% m/m.

Carnival Cruise Lines has ships outfitted with scrubbers and they operate in these Emission Control Areas. Lower emissions are gradually coming to other areas as well when scrubbers are retrofitted into older ships.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#29

Post by benj111 »

fasicle wrote: post #22
sdoering wrote: post #14

I once worked for a Cruise Company for some months. I really am shocked at how naive I was back then, when I applied and worked there. Back then I had no idea how bad this form of travel is for the environment, for the visited cities, for the people working below deck, and so on. The people I worked with in the main office of the company were really energetic, loved their product, had a great time launching ship afte…

"How bad this form of travel is for... the visited cities" I was holidaying in Split, Croatia when the MS Queen Elizabeth [1] docked and thousands of people descended onto the city from it. The quiet city became absolutely packed with tour groups from the ship, completely ruined the atmosphere. I guess the cruise tourists do bring in quite a bit of money from eating in the restaurants, buying souvenirs etc, so not th…

"I guess the cruise tourists do bring in quite a bit of money from eating in the restaurants"

Aren't most cruise ship full board?

Plus you seem to suggest that visitor numbers are very lumpy which would make it very difficult to size the local restaurant industry. If average summer visitors are 10000, then the QE2 dumps out 20000 visitors for 2 days out of the month, do you size yourself to accommodate 10000 visitors? 30000?

Source: Worked in pubs that hosted coach parties, there was a massive variation in spend from coach to coach.

Re: Cruise-line companies are building private Caribbean play zones

#30

Post by Swizec »

fasicle wrote: post #22
sdoering wrote: post #14

I once worked for a Cruise Company for some months. I really am shocked at how naive I was back then, when I applied and worked there. Back then I had no idea how bad this form of travel is for the environment, for the visited cities, for the people working below deck, and so on. The people I worked with in the main office of the company were really energetic, loved their product, had a great time launching ship afte…

"How bad this form of travel is for... the visited cities" I was holidaying in Split, Croatia when the MS Queen Elizabeth [1] docked and thousands of people descended onto the city from it. The quiet city became absolutely packed with tour groups from the ship, completely ruined the atmosphere. I guess the cruise tourists do bring in quite a bit of money from eating in the restaurants, buying souvenirs etc, so not th…

As we all know: Building for spiky traffic is the hardest.

Unlike with cloud computing where you can spin up more servers to meet demand, you can't just spin up more city, more streets, more restaurants, more sights, more everything at the drop of a hat when demand spikes. I wonder how much of that traffic spike from a big cruise ship the city is actually able to capture.

If the city was built for peak demand, maybe, but then you'd have to maintain all the infrastructure when the tourists aren't there. So unless you have a new cruise ship every day ...

It's a hard problem. I don't think it's solvable. I'm in Venice right now and the difference between 1pm when it's jam packed with tourists and a total hellhole on earth, and a nice 7am run when it's empty and gorgeous ... yeah it does not even begin to compare. These old cities just weren't built for the kind of foot traffic they get these days as tourist destinations.

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