Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

groups.csail.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 233 posts

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#21

Post by UglyToad »

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive?

From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll leave software for good.

Software to me is extremely mentally demanding and draining, it requires short burts of extreme concentration, but what is more draining is making up the remaining 4-5 hours looking busy. My experience of software work is that it doesn't scale linearly with number of hours. Unless you reach flow which is extremely rare in a business setting (thanks open-office / scrum) you can get the work done very quickly and then have large periods of unproductive time.

It's my experience that at most 2-3 hours is productively spent, the rest is wasted.

I meet software developers who advocate for, or don't mind, 8, 9, 10 hour days and I simply don't understand it, it's alien to me. Are they being productive all that time?

Edit: to clarify (since I've posted on this topic elsewhere today) the 8.5 hours include a 1 hour lunch break and Fridays are slightly shorter.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#22

Post by jplayer01 »

sravi2421 wrote: post #12

Sure, productivity is rising. But how much are healthcare and education costs rising? And how does that compare to this rise in productivity? Until those two pieces get solved, productivity gains don't matter since everyone needs to produce/earn more to just get those basic needs fulfilled.

> Sure, productivity is rising. But how much are healthcare and education costs rising?

But wait, part of the problem is that productivity growth has effectively decoupled from wage growth since the 70s (in the US, maybe the UK, and similar but not as drastic trends in other comparable Western countries). I find it odd that the article barely even mentions it in passing.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#23

Post by frosted-flakes »

astonex wrote: post #18
b3n wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 hours a day seems quite extreme to me.

Well for starters, looking at the charts in the link 30 hours is still much more productive than the 40hr 1975 worker. As a programmer I'm not doing focused programming for any more than 30 hours a week anyway

You might be productive, but you can't produce 6 hours a day from nothing.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#24

Post by tc7 »

firepoet wrote: post #15

The interesting thing is that wages have remained stagnant as productivity has increased dramatically. Which means that our labor has been valued less over time. What needs to happen is that the work week shortens while the minimum wage increases in kind. Top execs need to be comfortable making less, as they are the only ones profiting off these productivity increases.

Is this (wage stagnation) true for tech? It seems a special case.

I wonder what the exec-pay/wage/productivity growth charts look like if we exclude tech. (Less disparity? More? Less productivity?)

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#26

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

UglyToad wrote: post #21

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive? From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll…

Yeah, I also see this issue. It's made worse by Agile/Scrum that assumes during the planning poker meeting that every dev has 8 hours per day available of constant flow while the real value being maybe 5-6 if you're lucky so you end up cutting corners or burned out due to the stress of meeting the target velocity.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#27

Post by epaga »

astonex wrote: post #18
b3n wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 hours a day seems quite extreme to me.

Well for starters, looking at the charts in the link 30 hours is still much more productive than the 40hr 1975 worker. As a programmer I'm not doing focused programming for any more than 30 hours a week anyway

He was joking because you said 30 hours a day

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#28

Post by random_kris »

UglyToad wrote: post #21

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive? From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll…

I don't know that either. I can be REALLY productive for 2-3 hours a day but rest is socializing with other devs, answering emails etc... I try to structure my day so that I learn some stuff in those 8 hours, do some personal stuff (pay bills, call doctor, arrange stuff after work). I am regarded as quite productive but sometimes I feel really bad for not putting 100% in all those 8 hours but I find it impossible. I have problems with my legs when i sit for long periods of time so I am must productive in the morning till 12:00 after that it just so I have enough hours clocked in

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#29

Post by Lynbarry »

I reduced my time at work to 80% at the beginning of July. Every Friday is my day now. This week I had to switch it up so today is my day off. It's 1pm and I have already worked out, ran some errands that had been bugging me and am now reading this in one of my favorite diners which I for some reason almost never found the time to go to before.

If you have the chance and it seems intriguing to you I encourage everyone to try it out. I guess not all workplaces support it in the same way as mine does, but it was possible for me to have a three month trial phase after which I can go back to 100% or decide to continue the 80% for a year. Maybe your workplace would be open for that but you just don't know!

Of course it's quite the pay cut, but as a developer with few obligations I can still manage quite well. I feel much more relaxed over all and I enjoy my work more when I'm there. It even subjectively feels like I'm getting more done at work. The weekend feels so much longer and relaxing, because stuff I normally do on the weekend often is already done.

One problem for me is that I tend to cram a lot into my Fridays. I feel like I have to use them to their full potential. Then when the weather doesn't work out or something else falls through I'm pretty bummed. But I think that is something that can be improved over time.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#30

Post by LeonB »

Razengan wrote: post #16
sravi2421 wrote: post #12

Sure, productivity is rising. But how much are healthcare and education costs rising? And how does that compare to this rise in productivity? Until those two pieces get solved, productivity gains don't matter since everyone needs to produce/earn more to just get those basic needs fulfilled.

What is productivity?

For some things it’s easy to measure: eg how much wheat is produced per hour of farm labor.

Some easy to measure things don’t rise and it’s easy to see why, e.g. how many students does one teacher teach in a given day.

Productivity in the aggregate is “the gross national” product and is calculated by the bureau of statistics. This is divided by the total number of hours worked.

Must be a very big spreadsheet. :)

Post reply on HN