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The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

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Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#21

Post by eptcyka »

Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The argument isn't that doing _something_ is bad, it's that the amount of effort people put into obtaining their shiny non-paleolithic-compost-fueled-but-rather-battery-powered 2 tonne sledgehammers would be better spent changing policies that operate on organizational rather than individual units. How about we just stop buying as much shit from halfway across the world? Global trade requires us to spend stupid amounts of fuel in engines that have never been optimized for emissions. This of course involves making changes to global trade, this is a lot harder, but surely all those people who are capable of shelling out at least 30000$ (but in reality, barely anyone gets the cheapest model because this is a luxury item) could be doing things that make a bigger difference.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#22

Post by mcot2 »

“Still, in most cases an electric car is slightly less bad for the living planet than a comparable car with an internal combustion engine – if you can afford to buy one.”

Bad article all around. There is bias in that statement alone referencing the price of EV’s after an admission that they are actually better for the environment already. This article also references almost every negative trope about BEV’s.

What many of these articles fail to explore is any future advancements in technology that can solve some of the issues listed. Nothing in BEV technology is static, almost everything is improving from motor efficiency all the way to removing things like cobalt from batteries. It’s also possible that we will see a lot more localized solar and wind power for charging stations over time.

Lastly, autonomy is coming which will be a game changer when paired with BEV technology.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#23

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

People that buy electric cars to help the environment or become vegetarian, are probably more likely to make additional changes in their life, and persuade others to make changes as well, to reduce emissions.

I'm not sure about that, some of my neighbours seem to think that giving up plastic bags is enough to offset their annual holiday in Bali.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#24

Post by PeterStuer »

stuaxo wrote: post #16
PeterStuer wrote: post #7

"Electric cars give us a sense that we can have change without having to change at all. They are a talisman of false hope." On a tangent issue: it going to get even worse. The automotive industry predicts total annual miles driven to go up by 300% when autonomous driving comes through.

As an asthmatic I'm looking forward to a drastic reduction in the pollution in our cities. We still need to move to car free cities at the same time though.

I agree with you that the very idea that it is somehow acceptable to have an 'exhaust' on a car that just belches out toxins is just as crazy as dumping your nightpot out the top floor window into the middle of the street. There was also a time in which that was deemed 'normal'.

That said, a very large part of small particle dust produced by cars comes from wear, especially brakes, tires, road surface and crushed stuff by the weight of the car driving over. If there is a significant uptick in traffic, electric will be better than the equivalent traffic if it were all diesel, but the aggregate amount of micro dust might still go up compared to today's volume.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#25

Post by mcot2 »

PeterStuer wrote: post #7

"Electric cars give us a sense that we can have change without having to change at all. They are a talisman of false hope." On a tangent issue: it going to get even worse. The automotive industry predicts total annual miles driven to go up by 300% when autonomous driving comes through.

Miles driven should go up but with far fewer vehicles, since with autonomy cars can operate almost 24/7. But point taken, we will need those autonomous cars to be BEV and use renewable power.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#26

Post by agumonkey »

charlesism wrote: post #10

Alot about our system of roads and cars strikes me as crazy. Most of the vehicles on the road have only one person in them, yet weigh as much as an elephant. Nobody drives under the speed limit, which is typically fast enough to result in hundreds of thousands of fatalities every year anyways. Every neighborhood designed primarily for these idiotically heavy vehicles, that occasionally drive over pets and children wh…

The worst part about it IMO is traffic light and stops. In a city, if you can drive around 20mph (25 maybe) uninterrupted, you get in most places very fast, very pleasantly and with fuel savings since you never slow down.

Instead of a smooth flow, you get drivers that do:

    - high accelerations
    - nervous braking
    - idle engine running between 30 - 60 seconds (120 max?)
Pure waste.

Maybe I'm asking for a problem too complex to solve, but a smooth oriented traffic organization would help. Well, that is until fossil fuels are removed from the market.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#27

Post by lawlessone »

Electric vehicles would make a huge difference to me and many others that suffer from asthma.

Moving the emissions away from the vehicles , away from city centres and roads to the factories and power stations where they can be controlled would save thousands of lives.

Our children will look at us how we look at people during the industrial revolution. And a gradual change is better than no change at all.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#28

Post by PeterStuer »

mcot2 wrote: post #25
PeterStuer wrote: post #7

"Electric cars give us a sense that we can have change without having to change at all. They are a talisman of false hope." On a tangent issue: it going to get even worse. The automotive industry predicts total annual miles driven to go up by 300% when autonomous driving comes through.

Miles driven should go up but with far fewer vehicles, since with autonomy cars can operate almost 24/7. But point taken, we will need those autonomous cars to be BEV and use renewable power.

I have not seen automotive industry projections that predict fewer vehicles.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#29

Post by mcot2 »

PeterStuer wrote: post #24
stuaxo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an asthmatic I'm looking forward to a drastic reduction in the pollution in our cities. We still need to move to car free cities at the same time though.

I agree with you that the very idea that it is somehow acceptable to have an 'exhaust' on a car that just belches out toxins is just as crazy as dumping your nightpot out the top floor window into the middle of the street. There was also a time in which that was deemed 'normal'. That said, a very large part of small particle dust produced by cars comes from wear, especially brakes, tires, road surface and crushed stu…

Again, technology is not static. There are lots of folks working on the brake dust and tire wear issue. You should be happy to know that regenerative breaking on BEVs results in a lot less brake dust, although currently more tire wear due to more initial torque.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#30

Post by thomasz »

Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

You cannot shop yourself out of a societal problem. The tragedy of the commons guarantees that.
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