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A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

technologyreview.com

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Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#21

Post by marmaduke »

MrSlovenia wrote: post #3

Makes sense: when a country has an industrial revolution it just wants to grow fast. Then when the extreme growth part passes it starts to stabilize: this is when the country & the people start doing well enough so that they can look at other issues (environmental impact) without having to sacrifice their livelihoods. The human will always prioritize his own and his families livelihood. Only once that is stable can o…

This is exactly what I think of when I see hopefuls talking about climate change, among other topics. The guy who doesn't have enough money for rent? He's not buying the expensive free range eggs.

If I were in a developing country, I would be worried that climate accords become a other way for those on top to stay there.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#22

Post by marmaduke »

lozenge wrote: post #15
avip wrote: post #14

How does that reconcile with the actual (admittedly outdated) facts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_...

He is looking at carbon efficiency - emissions divided by GDP. On top of that, he's looking at the change in efficiency rather than the actual efficiency, thus he can boast that the US is increasingly efficient, instead of noting it is already very inefficient. Of course, the planet is based on physics and doesn't understand GDP, so this is all in a wider sense irrelevant.

> the planet is based on physics and doesn't understand GDP, so this is all in a wider sense irrelevant

Per

https://xkcd.com/435/

economics (GDP) would be to the far left (or between sociology and math if we're on S^1), so if efficiency became a part of the exchange rate or tax on goods, it would become immediately understandable by planet.

I like BTW, the suggestion that the planet's understanding things. I can imagine she feels rather itchy these days.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#23

Post by chewz »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

Where do you draw the line?

How about Thailand or Malaysia (as an example)? They are both fairly developed and hoping to avoid middle income trap and become developed countries within few years. In both countries disregard for enviroment and citizens health is just sad. Toxic haze, toxic water, pollution, trash.

When is the moment that a country decides that it is rich enough and it is time to clean its act?

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1643388/chiang-...

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thailand-monks-adorn-robes-ma...

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2019/08/06...

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2019/07/13/two-incid...

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2019/07/19/incinerat...

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#24

Post by esotericn »

algaeontoast wrote: post #18

I think another attribute of this is education and being aware that there is slightly more to life than just the pursuit of money. Sure, people with means fall for this all the time, but I think poor people also commonly enter the same trap. Note that a pursuit of saving face and appearing rich is entirely different than the pursuit of wealth - but a pursuit of money could take either path. For instance, understandin…

I'd argue that this is a huge issue in the Western world that we could theoretically solve, though how it would happen practically I'm not sure.

Stable homes for all, reduce and/or eliminate the worst forms of advertising.

With some luck you then have a relatively happy populace, content to spend time with their family and on leisure etc without wanting to get big 4x4s or jet around the world or whatever. Kill off the rat race.

Quite incompatible with our current economy though...

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#25

Post by drdrey »

Expez wrote: post #8

I recently finished Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker and this exact point was made in that book. I'll paraphrase a salient quote from the book: poverty is the greatest polluter. Intuitively this makes great sense: when you're eking out a subsistence living you're not going to care about the environment, but when resources are plenty you can afford to consider other living things too.

That's just not true. The US emits 16 tons of CO2 per capita. For many African countries, that number is 1-2.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_...

The greatest polluter is everybody living in large single family homes full of things manufactured on other continents, with AC, multiple cars, eating red meat every day.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#26

Post by tanilama »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

And literally export all their garbage to China.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#27

Post by keithnz »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

This is correct, the vague measure of how many people and how much pollution does a country produce is not very good. It's really about how much a country consumes and the resulting worldwide pollution.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#28

Post by gravelc »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

This practice has just been outlawed in Australia, which is great news. I’d willingly pay more for recycling to be done here.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#29

Post by dgellow »

esotericn wrote: post #24
algaeontoast wrote: post #18

I think another attribute of this is education and being aware that there is slightly more to life than just the pursuit of money. Sure, people with means fall for this all the time, but I think poor people also commonly enter the same trap. Note that a pursuit of saving face and appearing rich is entirely different than the pursuit of wealth - but a pursuit of money could take either path. For instance, understandin…

I'd argue that this is a huge issue in the Western world that we could theoretically solve, though how it would happen practically I'm not sure. Stable homes for all, reduce and/or eliminate the worst forms of advertising. With some luck you then have a relatively happy populace, content to spend time with their family and on leisure etc without wanting to get big 4x4s or jet around the world or whatever. Kill off th…

Not only incompatible with the economy. What you describe is likely to require an authoritarian system.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#30

Post by BurningFrog »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

This happened before poor countries had any manufacturing.
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