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Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

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Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always preferred to think of it as pumping water from the bottom of a (practically infinite) reservoir and dumping it at the top of a mountain then doing some work as it flows downhill, back to the reservoir. It provides a nice visual for why current always makes it back to ground, just like water always flow downhill. It also removes the tendency to anthropomorphize electrical current and say things like it "se…

Yes water is a great way to describe electricity in a lot of ways. I'm just struggling with the "returning to where it originates". For instance the electricity didn't originate from the grounding rod it came from the transformer. Earth is providing a very low electrical potential that the electricity is "attracted" to or "falling" to in the reservoir example. Am I wrong in thinking that all electricity is flowing ba…

> Am I wrong in thinking that all electricity is flowing back into earth?

Yes, sadly, you are wrong. But it's not a strange error.

Electricity always flows in a circle(circuit).

And, in fact, in medical devices, transformers are often used to completely isolate devices from the line that they are plugged into. Electrons on the device side of the transformer will NOT try to flow back into the line side or an earth. They only want to flow back to the device side of the transformer.

Now, the issue is that when you want to create really strict isolation like this, suddenly all manner of things that normally you don't pay attention to suddenly become relevant. Is the device side of that transformer really not connected to the line side anywhere? No goop on the board? No water vapor? No lines that are a little too close? Is the hospital bed not connected to anything?

Guitar players who use tube amps and vocalists who use condenser microphones wind up with this issue all the time. Both the amps and the mics are "isolated" with relatively high voltage signals floating around--300-400V for amps:48V for mics--and consequently strange paths cause lots of "buzz" in the signal.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#22
Why are there three wires in new receptacles? From my understanding, new code has you have to have a 3+ground but why is that safer? Did they just add an extra wire so you can have a hot, lead, and neutral to ground all the receptacle? (Plus the green/bare to bond the receptacle to switch/outlet)

Also, for home owners, what’s the best resource to learn common sense basics of electrical work (besides reading the city/states codes). Are there classes for such cases?

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#23
This section is plain wrong:

"The ONLY purpose for the EGC (or green wire) is to clear a ground-fault (clearing a ground-fault means tripping a breaker or blowing a fuse) in the 'oh shit moments'. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the ground or the Earth and will work exactly as it is intended to regardless of whether it is connected to the Earth or not."

If the EGC is floating, no current will flow in a ground fault and the breaker never trips.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#24
post #2

I'm actually the person who wrote this Reddit post. I'd never heard of Hacker News before, but someone messaged me on Reddit telling me this 4 year old post just surfaced over here. Let me know if you have any questions about electrical theory or installation, or anything else!

So in the UK we have 3 wires, red, blue and green, the green is ground or earth, what purpose does this serve? Is it the same as ground as you call it in the US

[deleted]

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#25
post #23

This section is plain wrong: "The ONLY purpose for the EGC (or green wire) is to clear a ground-fault (clearing a ground-fault means tripping a breaker or blowing a fuse) in the 'oh shit moments'. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the ground or the Earth and will work exactly as it is intended to regardless of whether it is connected to the Earth or not." If the EGC is floating, no current will flow in a ground fa…

If the EGC is floating, it's not an EGC. EGC is tied back to Neutral at the distribution point. Its sole purpose is to carry fault current.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#26
post #18

The details of this also vary based on where you're at. In the US, neutral is bonded to earth at every house I think. In Europe, neutral is only bonded to earth at a local power station.

Yeah, this is 100% based on the US electrical system. I am not familiar enough with how other countries do it to speak intelligently on their systems.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#27
post #2

I'm actually the person who wrote this Reddit post. I'd never heard of Hacker News before, but someone messaged me on Reddit telling me this 4 year old post just surfaced over here. Let me know if you have any questions about electrical theory or installation, or anything else!

So in the UK we have 3 wires, red, blue and green, the green is ground or earth, what purpose does this serve? Is it the same as ground as you call it in the US

I’m not an electrician but will take a stab at your answer. Please see if you can verify what I said so you don’t fry yourself.

If the green wire is connected between the receptacle and the outlet/switch then it’s “bonding” the two mental items. (Using the terminology from post). Most people refer to this as the ground wire or grounding the receptacle. The purpose, from my understanding, is to have a stable system. In the event the hot wire touches the receptacle.

If the red/blue/green are coming from the same cable (3 wires inside another sheath), then your green is the ground/neutral that connects to the electrical box itself, while the other two are hot/lead.

I posted a similar question above which may clarify things if the OP answers.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#28
post #23

This section is plain wrong: "The ONLY purpose for the EGC (or green wire) is to clear a ground-fault (clearing a ground-fault means tripping a breaker or blowing a fuse) in the 'oh shit moments'. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the ground or the Earth and will work exactly as it is intended to regardless of whether it is connected to the Earth or not." If the EGC is floating, no current will flow in a ground fa…

If the EGC is floating, it's not an EGC. EGC is tied back to Neutral at the distribution point. Its sole purpose is to carry fault current.

And the neutral is tied to (earth) ground. Otherwise all metal devices would shock you if you touched something earth referenced, such as a radiator, at the same time.

Edit to clarify: In principle, only the voltage difference between Live and Neutral matters for running a device. So theoretically one could construct a building supply where Neutral is not at earth potential. However, EGC has to be at earth potential, otherwise there would be a voltage between any metal electronic device and earthed objects, such as radiators or your feet standing in a puddle. This means that in practice both Neutral and EGC are always physically connected to the earth in some way and have to be for the system to work properly.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#29
post #2

I'm actually the person who wrote this Reddit post. I'd never heard of Hacker News before, but someone messaged me on Reddit telling me this 4 year old post just surfaced over here. Let me know if you have any questions about electrical theory or installation, or anything else!

So in the UK we have 3 wires, red, blue and green, the green is ground or earth, what purpose does this serve? Is it the same as ground as you call it in the US

I'm from the US, so I'll add the caveat that this is answer is based on my foreign understanding and a British electrician may be better suited to answer this.

Your green wire would be what the US calls a ground wire, and what is more accurately called a Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC). It's purpose is to bond all normally non-current carrying conductive parts of a system together to provide a ground-fault current path back to the source so that the overcurrent protective device can operate properly to open the circuit in the case of a ground fault. It is 100% a safety measure, and will operate as intended to open a breaker whether or not it is connected to the Earth.

Your red and black wires are both ungrounded conductors, and are the conductors which actually create the circuit that allows current to flow to power whatever you connect to the circuit. The circuit will work to provide current without the green wire. However, without the green wire, if either the red or black shorts to something, the breaker will not open and you have an enormous potential to harm someone or burn your house down.

Re: Why we ground electrical systems (2015)

#30

This blew my mind. So the white wire (neutral) is actually what I thought the ground was (connected to earth) and the “ground” wire (usually bare or green) is a conductor for clearing ground faults and isn’t connected to earth. Marvelous explanation.

They are both connected to earth at the same point. The big difference is that "neutral" has current flowing through it during normal operation, but "ground" only has current flowing through it in a fault condition.
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