Burnout • Hacker News Board

Re: Burnout

#21

Post by hellisothers » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #8

blbfsh wrote: post #2

I like the note in the end about his advice: This advice doesn’t get you very far. In the abstract, it’s just more self-help cliché. For me these are hard-won lessons, and it’s unlikely I would have done anything differently if someone had told me this when I was 26 or 30. I feel like the cause of burnout generally lies much deeper than not asking for help or not putting health first. It's more about certain values e…

“A soldier does not become a shrewd general merely by endorsing the strategic principles of Clausewitz; he must also be competent to apply them.” “Knowing how to apply maxims cannot be reduced to, or derived from, the acceptance of those or any other maxims.” — Ryle, Gilbert. The Concept of Mind (1949) I started reading this a couple of weeks ago after seeing it referenced in Peter Naur’s “Programming as Theory Build…

Which is why when you’re interviewing you should have a really good example of personal failure and recovery :)

Re: Burnout

#22

Post by didgeoridoo » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

hellisothers wrote: post #19

didgeoridoo wrote: post #11

My wife is a clinical psychologist focusing on the mental health impact of high-pressure jobs. She had me build this “Burnout Calculator” based on a self-evaluation protocol they use in their practice. Leaving it here in case it’s helpful for anyone: https://azimuthpsych.com/burnout-calculator

Assuming this is a relatively standardized protocol this is a great idea. However, getting a score at the end and then the tag line “you’re fine but you should contact us anyway to see if therapy could help” feels icky

If you actually feel fine, then of course therapy isn’t likely to do much for you. The idea is if you’re feeling terrible enough to evaluate yourself, but it turns out you likely aren’t suffering from burnout, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look into therapy. Often people think they are suffering from burnout, but it turns out they actually have underlying trauma, anxiety, depression, etc. unrelated to work stress.

Re: Burnout

#23

Post by b_tterc_p » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

I have never been burned out, but I think I would have been. I did a couple stints at various places (non dev work) where I was pretty excited to continue working and get higher in the org. Fortunately for me they were co-ops which ended and allowed me to see that, retrospectively, they kind of sucked, were not especially fruitful career tracks, and would have ground me down after a year or so. It’s really hard to check yourself while engaged and working on something.

Re: Burnout

#24

Post by jasim » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #8

blbfsh wrote: post #2

I like the note in the end about his advice: This advice doesn’t get you very far. In the abstract, it’s just more self-help cliché. For me these are hard-won lessons, and it’s unlikely I would have done anything differently if someone had told me this when I was 26 or 30. I feel like the cause of burnout generally lies much deeper than not asking for help or not putting health first. It's more about certain values e…

“A soldier does not become a shrewd general merely by endorsing the strategic principles of Clausewitz; he must also be competent to apply them.” “Knowing how to apply maxims cannot be reduced to, or derived from, the acceptance of those or any other maxims.” — Ryle, Gilbert. The Concept of Mind (1949) I started reading this a couple of weeks ago after seeing it referenced in Peter Naur’s “Programming as Theory Build…

I've come to believe that reading isn't as useful as I previously thought. I still read prolifically, because it is pleasurable, and occasionally inspiring, but not because there are any causal benefits I can point to.

"The saying experientia magistra rerum, ‘experience is a great teacher’, was familiar in the Middle Ages: you don’t learn to ride a horse or shoot an arrow by reading books." (from the book, oh the irony, The Invention of Science by Wooton)

Re: Burnout

#25

Post by agoodthrowaway » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

I had my first major career failure this year and lost a very good job. I was able to land another good job quickly but I’ve been full of doubt and am seriously lacking in confidence ever since. I can’t sleep and have anxiety. The new job has significantly more responsibility and in many ways the pressure that the author describes in rewriting Slack is very similar to what I’m going through. Every time I have a setback at work I am afraid of losing my job. I finally recognized this as burnout and am trying to come back from it but it’s a slow process. I’m trying to exercise more and get enough sleep but the sleep part is still not working all that well.

Re: Burnout

#26

Post by rewgs » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

coffeefirst wrote: post #18

jacknews wrote: post #7

Is this really burnout, or just overheating? To me burnout is more the psychological state of "why am I even doing this anymore?", loss of enthusiasm, perhaps even some degree of despondency and hopelessness about the future, etc. This seems more like just temporary over-exertion, under-nutrition/exercise/etc, which can be fixed with a lazy holiday, safe in the knowledge that all those Slack shares are vesting.

Two things surprised me about burnout: 1. It has physical symptoms. 2. It doesn't go away when you stop. Vacation is good. But two weeks after my vacation I had a rough couple of days, nothing that I couldn't handle before, and I was right back where I started. I've come to think of it like a mental equivalent of a torn muscle. Recovery takes time—probably far more time than I expect, and if you overexert it, even a…

That analogy is spot on. Absolutely the perfect way to look at burnout in my experience.

Re: Burnout

#27

Post by world32 » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

> I design and build technology in Vancouver. I spend most of my time working on Slack, a paradigm-shifting tool for team communication. In my work I strive for usefulness, beauty, and positive impact on the lives of others.

From this chap's tag line on his home page it seems like he still identifies strongly with his work and over emphasises the importance of it.

Re: Burnout

#28

Post by yters » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

Wilduck wrote: post #14

jacknews wrote: post #7

Is this really burnout, or just overheating? To me burnout is more the psychological state of "why am I even doing this anymore?", loss of enthusiasm, perhaps even some degree of despondency and hopelessness about the future, etc. This seems more like just temporary over-exertion, under-nutrition/exercise/etc, which can be fixed with a lazy holiday, safe in the knowledge that all those Slack shares are vesting.

I downvoted you and wanted to tell you why. In this story someone just shared an experience of being in deep pain, psychologically and physically. While you may not intend to be mean, your response boils down to "you didn't feel enough pain to qualify for burnout." Even if you didn't intend it, this response has an aspect of shaming the author. I think that it's really important for people to be able to talk about me…

I suffered from depression a lot while a teenager and early twenties, and I think lack of empathy from others has helped me snap out of it. Depression, at least for me, can be a form of feeling sorry for myself, and when others feel sorry for me that compounds the problem.

Re: Burnout

#29

Post by slips » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

didgeoridoo wrote: post #22

hellisothers wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming this is a relatively standardized protocol this is a great idea. However, getting a score at the end and then the tag line “you’re fine but you should contact us anyway to see if therapy could help” feels icky

If you actually feel fine, then of course therapy isn’t likely to do much for you. The idea is if you’re feeling terrible enough to evaluate yourself, but it turns out you likely aren’t suffering from burnout, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look into therapy. Often people think they are suffering from burnout, but it turns out they actually have underlying trauma, anxiety, depression, etc. unrelated to work stress.

Everyone, even healthy people, should attend therapy if able. There's a lot of tricky ground to navigate as a person and you don't have to be experiencing trauma to get help.

Re: Burnout

#30

Post by dasil003 » Sun, Jul 28, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

jasim wrote: post #24

kd5bjo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“A soldier does not become a shrewd general merely by endorsing the strategic principles of Clausewitz; he must also be competent to apply them.” “Knowing how to apply maxims cannot be reduced to, or derived from, the acceptance of those or any other maxims.” — Ryle, Gilbert. The Concept of Mind (1949) I started reading this a couple of weeks ago after seeing it referenced in Peter Naur’s “Programming as Theory Build…

I've come to believe that reading isn't as useful as I previously thought. I still read prolifically, because it is pleasurable, and occasionally inspiring, but not because there are any causal benefits I can point to. "The saying experientia magistra rerum, ‘experience is a great teacher’, was familiar in the Middle Ages: you don’t learn to ride a horse or shoot an arrow by reading books." (from the book, oh the iro…

It sounds like you might be over-correcting if you truly believe reading doesn't have any "causal benefits". The vast majority of what you read might not be directly applicable to your pursuits, but when you find those nuggets that reveal a flaw you hadn't perceived, or point you in a new direction the results can be dramatic. Practice and knowledge go hand-in-hand, the key is judgement on where to focus day-to-day.