Nice idea, but I think this misses the reality of what is happening. Instagram is removing likes because it incentivises an economic system that they are not only left out of, but is a net cost to them. Top influencers make a lot of money based on those metrics, Instagram doesn't see a cent of that yet they support these "businesses". Does anyone consider what it costs to distribute a post to 10s of millions of peopl…
It's a cost to them that more people are coming to the platform and viewing ads? I don't get it.
Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
21–30 of 42 posts
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#22Metrics with hard numbers are always too precise to be useful. Even the well-meaning will micromanage based off the difference of a 5 or 6 on a scale of 50. I find the key is metric obfuscation. Instead of "1023 likes", color code the post. A deep crimson for the most downvoted and a sky blue for the most upvoted on a site. The specific value is so useless anyway.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#23"For social media titans, full demetrication would require a more radical abandonment of faith in data, and a disavowal of the numbers-driven “growth mindset” that has powered Silicon Valley for so long."
I'm conflicted on this change. On the one hand, we can see how visible like and follower counts incentivises wrong behaviour on the user side (let's leave aside ethical concerns about "nudging" users to the "correct" usage).
But on the other, these data points are still there for the company. They still know how many likes, and followers you have. They randomize your timeline to increase engagement. So this is not a radical change for them, they are still going to use all the data points they can to push you in the direction they want. The main thing this changes is how transparent they are about this. For Instagram, this means pushing you to use stories more, because it's what's driving engagement now.
Also, it's worth noting that for these companies, metrics were a vital part to convince investors to buy into the companies: they could point to them and say: "see? we're growing, people are engaging!". Now that they've made it, they can afford to tune it down.
The New York Times ran an article about this back in May[0]:
"[T]oday, what you see on Twitter and Instagram already depends on a mixture of signals — things you’ve liked in the past, how much time you’ve spent looking at a particular user’s content, whether you communicate privately with a given user and whether you have an affinity for some topic or another — not just chronology, likes or retweets. Those signals are all metrics too, of a sort, invisible to us but very much legible to the platforms themselves. Imagine a ticker in your Instagram app counting up the number of times you’ve scrolled, or tallying the number of times you’ve tapped, or counting up the seconds you’ve spent looking at an image. These already exist, somewhere, and may inform what you see every day. They’re just not for you to know.
Understood this way, the idea that metrics are the problem sounds an awful lot like these companies saying their users can no longer be trusted, not even with the scraps of actionable data they’ve been allowed to see for years."
[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/31/style/are-likes-and-follo...
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#24Mastodon does this. It’s really nice. So’s the non-engagement-optimized chronological timeline, of course.
Facebook, Twitter and Instagram all have shadowy businesses to buy likes, followers and whatnot. Now just imagine how that would turn out in a decentralized setting where any script can create many accounts on several different servers of the fediverse.
Big corps have to show the metrics because their "engagement" model relies on those number to keep people addicted. On the fediverse, there is no incentive to make people addicts to your service, and showing the numbers would just encourage the same kind of fake-fame industry as on those big networks.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Funny thing: I still don't know what [-] means, there are no tooltips or any other hints so I prefer not to click it.
It's just a simple collapse thread feature.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#26Nice idea, but I think this misses the reality of what is happening. Instagram is removing likes because it incentivises an economic system that they are not only left out of, but is a net cost to them. Top influencers make a lot of money based on those metrics, Instagram doesn't see a cent of that yet they support these "businesses". Does anyone consider what it costs to distribute a post to 10s of millions of peopl…
They will surely offer "promoted content" and claim it to be popular. Honestly, while I don't like point/karma systems very much, I think the development to even more artificially placed content will not be in favor of platforms in the long term. Advertisers encroach on every platform and it really sucks. Youtube for example didn't really develop anything worthwhile for users. 5 years ago the platform was so much mor…
Sites that constantly evolve and try to reinvent themselves annoy me way more.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
They will surely offer "promoted content" and claim it to be popular. Honestly, while I don't like point/karma systems very much, I think the development to even more artificially placed content will not be in favor of platforms in the long term. Advertisers encroach on every platform and it really sucks. Youtube for example didn't really develop anything worthwhile for users. 5 years ago the platform was so much mor…
I’m glad YouTube didn’t develop a lot. Right now it does the job, supports everything I want as a user and mostly stays out of my way. Sites that constantly evolve and try to reinvent themselves annoy me way more.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a cost to them that more people are coming to the platform and viewing ads? I don't get it.
It's a loss of potential revenue that advertisers and content creators can make advertising deals directly, without depending on instagram as a middleman.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#29Nice idea, but I think this misses the reality of what is happening. Instagram is removing likes because it incentivises an economic system that they are not only left out of, but is a net cost to them. Top influencers make a lot of money based on those metrics, Instagram doesn't see a cent of that yet they support these "businesses". Does anyone consider what it costs to distribute a post to 10s of millions of peopl…
This makes sense from the perspective of the relationship between, say, Kim Kardashian and Instagram. More reach is directly valuable to some people.
But it kind of falls down when you think about the ordinary customer base. A lot of people will want to follow Kim Kardashian. They may not have any other reason to use Instagram at all. But when they try to follow her account, it doesn't look good to show the message "you can't see Kim Kardashian's pictures, because 200,000 other people have already signed up to look at them. Try asking Kim to upgrade her account! (But no, you can't message her here.)"
Summary -- charging popular accounts for potential reach, as opposed to charging advertisers for pushed advertisements, can have strong negative effects on your user base, despite the fact that those users never wanted the reach. They did want their favorite popular accounts to be able to reach them.
Re: Demetrification: Removing the numbers of likes and retweets from public view
#30Related to this, I remember when HN was showing the amount of upvotes on comments (like it does on posts). I still miss it, because quickly scanning a very thick amount of content, I'd like to know where I should spend time. I do it with posts (and the list /best is great if you're short on time). The ordering still supposedly shows us the very recent followed by the 'solid comments', but there is 0 information about…