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The Vision for Decentralized Web

tautvilas.lt

21–30 of 53 posts

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#21
post #15
post #13

Gah! While reading the article I followed links and secondary links, and searched, and I now have 18 resulting tabs open. The last one is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=decentra... and the first link on that search result page is to TBL's Solid project, which seems to be Yet Another DWeb effort. Should I think of this, and other Dwebs, as an eventual global replace for FBook et al? Or is/wi…

Author here. I would like to address some of your questions: 1) The web is decentralized by design - we only need to 'upgrade it' 2) We need to create tools that empower people to leverage decentralized capabilities of the web (so that there would be no need for aunt to run the node) 3) I imagine we should not think about DWeb as some sort of FB replacement but more of an ecosystem where people feel that they have a…

> It is not clear how this has to be implemented but I feel that some more privacy oriented and data-ownership oriented platforms will emerge in the next five years.

Thanks. I look forward to opening another 18 tabs in five years. :)

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#22
post #17

I would like to know how many people still use the web in comparison to how many people use the Internet. My guess would be that normal people are moving to using specific mobile apps for everything they need.

Some of the Blockstack apps work on mobile as well (I haven't tested them all but a saw some good progressive web app designs).

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Blockstack PBC, a public benefit corporation at the heart of the Blockstack ecosystem, has raised $50M+ in capital to develop the core protocols and developer tools for the platform." What is decentralized about a venture-funded vanity project?

Muneeb from Blockstack here. There was a HN Launch discussion recently that might be relevant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20413420 The decentralization comes from (a) open-source GPLv3 code, (b) permissionless blockchain, (c) enabling users to host private data lockers, among other things. The discussion on decentralization in our recent SEC offering circular -- page 49 and page 69 at https://stackstok…

From page 69 of your circular:

"At some point when this decentralization process is complete and there is a healthy ecosystem of applications and users on the network, Blockstack PBC expects to develop new business models"

This is the Field of Dreams approach to reinventing the internet economy.

Also from that circular: "core nodes are hosted on Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, and Amazon Web Services, or AWS, which provides us with computing and storage capacity. Some elements of this complex system are operated by third parties that Blockstack does not control and that could require significant time to replace. We expect this dependence on third parties to continue"

I'm struggling to understand what is decentralized about any of this. From my vantage point, you got VC to pay you to run a project on the cloud by saying "blockchain" a lot.

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#24
the problem with decentralization is that, for an average Joe, it's just a bunch of loonies wearing tin foil hats who have something to hide, and besides, what has Facebook done to me (average Joe) personally? People, ultimately, don't care about privacy that much, not until they see obvious consequences of corps having their data that affect them greatly in their lives. Privacy against employers/old school friends/fiancees is something they care about, that's why Snapchat, Instagram Stories and private groups are replacing the public newsfeed. Decentralization must offer some clear advantages over fb, that an average person might appreciate. Those advantages must offset the UX problems, of which there are plenty, most of them pretty hard to fix. In my opinion, the worst one is the ubiquitous use of smartphones over PCs, as any decentralized stuff on smartphones is a nightmare, mostly due to systems relying on servers for stuff like push and background app refresh. This is particularly important on iOs. Also true decentralization, NOT federation, with checks and balances, possibly with nodes that only connect to other nodes that have signed a sort of license / legal agreement, is the only way to ensure it won't turn into mail, AKA one big Gmail that doesn't care, and the rest which doesn't matter.

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#26
I think equating "the internet" and "the web" is sloppy; the author does this in the first paragraph and throughout the article.

> It [The Internet/The Web] took off with hackers running independent servers in their basements.

Is that true? Maybe if we're talking "the internet", things like MUD, IRC, Usenet, or BBS servers were run by individuals, but looking at the "List of websites founded before 1995"[1] it seems like there were big players outside of labs/universities pretty early on in the history of The Web. I'm asking a legitimate question here: was www successful (at least in part) due to websites from individuals (let's maybe say "students on university networks" rather than "hackers in basements") over large institutions (like the magazines)?

> The informational landscape today shifted from people sharing personal websites to sharing social posts.

Again, I question the accuracy. Did more people have personal websites than BBS/Usenet/Web-Forum accounts?

Regarding the dpage.io site this article is promoting:

> As you can see, there are no ads, no clutter, only information that was created by the user.

This is a problem I think the "distributed web" community has to deal with: What if the user wants to monetize their content, perhaps with ads? Either people are going to do some "pay per view" of articles on your network (which seems to be antithetical to "information for the masses" that I have a feeling most decentralized developers identify with), or they use ads. Want your ads to do better? well don't fund the network that has reader anonymity built in.

> The domain name system enables any person on earth to have his human-readable address on the web. This system is decentralized by design and is owned by nobody.

So they want to fork DNS from ICANN so your identity is always linked to your website?

> Dpage.io is not a website builder, and it is not a blogging platform.

Design your own website, upload it to us and we'll host it for free.

Reading the contents of the strange little iPad on https://dpage.io/ it says:

> Your user profile details along with your data are by default stored on a free Blockstack's Gaia storage hub. DPAGE doesn't store your data on its own servers. You can run your own storage hub on a server of your choice.

So it is that kind of distributed server: the one you run yourself.

The phrase "a free Blockstack's Gaia storage hub" is strange and feels very corporate, being sure to indicate that it's not just any Gaia server, but the one OWNED by Blockstack. Sometimes it's the little things that show you how much control the marketing department has.

I'm not going to comment on their blockchain stuff.

I'm only criticizing because I think people are putting lots of effort into solutions that are misguided: "The people WANT to have their own websites! This is the platform they'll want for sure!". I very well may be missing the point here, but inaccuracies and romanticizing the past lead me to skepticism.

XAMPP[2] is still around after 17 years, (last updated 4 days ago), which I remember being super easy to setup your own site, and I have a feeling it's even easier now. CMS platforms like Wordpress.com, SquareSpace, etc, do allow you to own your own content, easily use themes/plugins, and backup/export everything if you want to move (for a price, because they're providing a service, which is reasonable).

I think the most interesting decentralized platform is dat/beakerbrowser, because

A) There's already a tangible working product (Beaker)

B) There's no login/user-admin: your browser upon startup is a node in the network

C) Backwards compatible with http(s), so it's not like there's a hard fork of the DNS namespace and links no longer work.

D) No concept of privacy/encryption (that I'm aware of). You really don't own your data, you publish it and the system is designed to allow anyone/everyone with the link to copy it, change it, host it, seed it. If you don't like that, don't use it.

Of course you have to seed your site, so again there's a chicken and egg problem of hosting your own server (but if it's just running the browser until your friend says they've downloaded the site, it's easy, right?)

I didn't mean for this to turn into a rant, but I guess it did.

I wish dpage/decentus/blockstack/gaia good luck because I think distributed webs do have a future and every player can bring something to the table, but I hope their message/intentions become a little more focused.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_founded_befor...

[2] https://www.apachefriends.org/index.html

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#27

They seem to have forgotten Step 0, create a viable business model that can pay people.

Many Blockstack apps are about managing user data. If you want to make profit from this data then you stay where we are at the moment with data capitalism...

You need money to build and run the apps. Source: I do this for a living.

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#28

I'll be interested to see where these distributed trends go. I too have been working on something to solve a problem I face; "information" sharing and storage. Fundamentally I want a public wikipedia focused around small pieces of information (though I'm still toying/dogfooding with the UX) , but more importantly I don't think it should be a centralized entity. Oddly though there's something I don't like about buildi…

Some decentralized discovery method for interesting tech content would be nice. Something simple, like if you could put a list of websites you like to:

    https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list
    -------
    https://friend1.domain/ Blogs about electronics
    https://friend2.domain/ Blogs about knitting
    -------

    https://friend1.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list
    -------
    https://my.domain/ Blogs about hacking SBCs
    https://friend3.domain/ Nice website
    -------

And you could write a bot that would walk through this, avoid loops, and construct a graph, and give you a search or RSS. RSS feeds could be also discoverable.

    https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/my-feeds.txt
    --------
    https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/feed-blog.xml My blog posts
    https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/feed-announce.xml My announcements
    --------
Just something that helps with discovery of interesting content in a decentralized way, outside of search engines, aggregators, HTML pages, etc. You would be able to select search distnace from certain domains, blacklist domains, etc.

And if you assume person == domain, this would build an open, distributed, searchable social graph (of people with domains :) and something to say). You'd be able to see weights of domains by how many people recommend them, etc.

There would be no central storage for the graph.

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#29
post #28

I'll be interested to see where these distributed trends go. I too have been working on something to solve a problem I face; "information" sharing and storage. Fundamentally I want a public wikipedia focused around small pieces of information (though I'm still toying/dogfooding with the UX) , but more importantly I don't think it should be a centralized entity. Oddly though there's something I don't like about buildi…

Some decentralized discovery method for interesting tech content would be nice. Something simple, like if you could put a list of websites you like to: https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list ------- https://friend1.domain/ Blogs about electronics https://friend2.domain/ Blogs about knitting ------- https://friend1.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list ------- https://my.domain/ Blogs abo…

That is something I have been thinking about too. I imagine this could work as a distributed decentralized db where you publish some link and sign it with your domain key. A client could easily select the most submitted urls from DB and also 'follow' certain domains(users) that submit the most interesting urls. I would love to discuss and validate this idea more.

Re: The Vision for Decentralized Web

#30
post #28

I'll be interested to see where these distributed trends go. I too have been working on something to solve a problem I face; "information" sharing and storage. Fundamentally I want a public wikipedia focused around small pieces of information (though I'm still toying/dogfooding with the UX) , but more importantly I don't think it should be a centralized entity. Oddly though there's something I don't like about buildi…

Some decentralized discovery method for interesting tech content would be nice. Something simple, like if you could put a list of websites you like to: https://my.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list ------- https://friend1.domain/ Blogs about electronics https://friend2.domain/ Blogs about knitting ------- https://friend1.domain/.well-known/distributed/recommended.list ------- https://my.domain/ Blogs abo…

This is a really cool idea. I might spend some time hacking on something like this after dweb camp. If you're on Scuttlebutt I can CC you on my progress.
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