The Importance of Insect Suffering • Hacker News Board

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#21

Post by chr1 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #19

I wonder about the implications of believing animals and insects to be agents with subjective experiences. Would that not imply some form of moral culpability for animals? If animals inflict untold amounts of suffering on each other and we consider them to be beings capable of experiencing subjective experiences, would the most logical path not somehow be to eliminate all animals and insects?

That assumes that suffering by itself is inherently bad, but there is no evidence for this. As far as we understand brain can be simulated on a computer, so pain and joy are simply computations, and minimizing one kind of computation isn't all that nobel goal. I would say not living is much worse than suffering.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#22

Post by thatcat » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #19

I wonder about the implications of believing animals and insects to be agents with subjective experiences. Would that not imply some form of moral culpability for animals? If animals inflict untold amounts of suffering on each other and we consider them to be beings capable of experiencing subjective experiences, would the most logical path not somehow be to eliminate all animals and insects?

The logical argument could be made for preservation of all species in the food web because they contain unique genetic material documenting robust metabolic pathways. These pathways also involve the manufacture of unique proteins and enzymes that could be very valuable - theoretically utilizing them could reduce suffering in some way.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#23

Post by IdiocyInAction » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

chr1 wrote: post #21

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #19

I wonder about the implications of believing animals and insects to be agents with subjective experiences. Would that not imply some form of moral culpability for animals? If animals inflict untold amounts of suffering on each other and we consider them to be beings capable of experiencing subjective experiences, would the most logical path not somehow be to eliminate all animals and insects?

That assumes that suffering by itself is inherently bad, but there is no evidence for this. As far as we understand brain can be simulated on a computer, so pain and joy are simply computations, and minimizing one kind of computation isn't all that nobel goal. I would say not living is much worse than suffering.

With suffering I mean the subjective experience of "bad" feelings, which I fo think is inherently bad. I'd imagine you try to optimize your life in a way such that you avoid "bad" feelings.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#24

Post by chr1 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 3:02 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #23

chr1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes that suffering by itself is inherently bad, but there is no evidence for this. As far as we understand brain can be simulated on a computer, so pain and joy are simply computations, and minimizing one kind of computation isn't all that nobel goal. I would say not living is much worse than suffering.

With suffering I mean the subjective experience of "bad" feelings, which I fo think is inherently bad. I'd imagine you try to optimize your life in a way such that you avoid "bad" feelings.

If that was my main goal i would use drugs, or just kill myself. Maximize "good" feelings is a better heuristic because most people accept arbitrary large amount of "bad" feelings, if that promises something good at the end.

If a theory leads to conclusion that you should kill someone to help it, then something in its axioms is clearly wrong. Though looking at your username i am not sure if you were suggesting the above seriously or simply were trolling people who think that way.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#25

Post by pontifier » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

I have an abundance of empathy, and agree that suffering should be minimized. I do my best to minimize the suffering of those around me.

I still kill insects sometimes, but do my best to ensure that it is as painless and swift as possible.

Empathy is also a driving force for me in my interactions with others. I have a deep desire to end societal problems that cause suffering, and I deeply oppose war.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#26

Post by scotty79 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

rebuilder wrote: post #7

scotty79 wrote: post #2

Oh come one. We'll sooner have AIs that will wonder if humans can truly suffer, than we will be able to determine if insects suffer.

Proving subjective experiences is pretty tricky indeed. If I were to poke you with a needle, I'd assume your vocalisations and gesticulations meant you experienced suffering, because your behaviours map to what I would do, myself, were I suffering from a needle poke. I can't prove that, however, any more than I can prove a fly suffers. When it comes to humans, we generally don't worry about that lack of rigorous proo…

> But why does that generosity extend only to our own kind?

I think mostly for practical reasons.

Also only recently that generosity towards humans became widespread. Until very recently torturing and killing another human for some minor offences was considered wholesome fun for the whole family.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#27

Post by sitkack » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

linnaeus wrote: post #14

gregoryexe wrote: post #5

Millions of human beings are dying of starvation, but no let's fret about the insects we might step on while we walk across the lawn.

It's not a zero-sum game, we can recognise and work to solve both issues simultaneously. Tomasik's recommendations are moderate: > Given how many insects each of us harms or helps by our choices, consideration of insect suffering should play a significant role in our actions. For instance, we should generally avoid buying silk and shellac, reduce driving especially when roads are wet, and minimize walking on grass or…

Thank you.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#28

Post by karmakaze » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

Let us not get ourselves caught up in binary views. Insects may suffer, even plants may suffer, but it's not on the same level as the suffering of higher life forms. Let's concentrate on reducing suffering there first. The rest is more of an academic affair at this point or our understanding.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#29

Post by Kaiyou » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

pontifier wrote: post #25

I have an abundance of empathy, and agree that suffering should be minimized. I do my best to minimize the suffering of those around me. I still kill insects sometimes, but do my best to ensure that it is as painless and swift as possible. Empathy is also a driving force for me in my interactions with others. I have a deep desire to end societal problems that cause suffering, and I deeply oppose war.

The way you say this makes me wonder if excessive empathy is a mental illness.

Re: The Importance of Insect Suffering

#30

Post by Kaiyou » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #23

chr1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes that suffering by itself is inherently bad, but there is no evidence for this. As far as we understand brain can be simulated on a computer, so pain and joy are simply computations, and minimizing one kind of computation isn't all that nobel goal. I would say not living is much worse than suffering.

With suffering I mean the subjective experience of "bad" feelings, which I fo think is inherently bad. I'd imagine you try to optimize your life in a way such that you avoid "bad" feelings.

You cannot get rid of bad feelings just like you cannot get rid of poor people. No matter how much you improve, there will always be someone getting a shorter stick than someone else. I think that's how we got the insanity that are "micro-aggressions". Can't have light without shadow.