Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#21

Post by UkiahSmith » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

EL_Loco wrote: post #19

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

I have a split keyboard, and I think the real benefit is not that I can rotate my wrists, but that it allows me to pull my shoulder blades closer together. I sit more upright and have less back pain.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#22

Post by tfolbrecht » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Thank God our arms have joints in three places allowing us to position them arbitrarily.

Once you type one handed or use a mouse your ergonomic keyboard is less comfortable than the traditional geometry.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#23

Post by mietek » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Check out this 3D-printed recreation of a DataHand.

https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#24

Post by ianhowson » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

UkiahSmith wrote: post #21

EL_Loco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

I have a split keyboard, and I think the real benefit is not that I can rotate my wrists, but that it allows me to pull my shoulder blades closer together. I sit more upright and have less back pain.

This. I also enjoy being able to move the two halves around through the day, shifting the muscular load around. It makes it easy to accommodate different seating, standing and lying positions.

(I never figured out, despite 'ergonomics training', how I was supposed to hold my extended hands and arms upright for hours per day without shoulder and neck pain.)

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#25

Post by maximilianroos » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#26

Post by maximilianroos » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

doyoulikeworms wrote: post #3

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

> Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle that sounds like an amazing product TBH-- does anything like that exist?

This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#27

Post by LukeShu » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

isoprophlex wrote: post #7

kajecounterhack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No touchpad but: https://shop.keyboard.io

That looks incredible: build quality, ergonomics, there's even an Any key But the edge of maple body looks a bit high. Do you own one? How comfortable is it to rest your wrists on it? (I prefer the shallowest possible keyboards myself)

I have one too. Because the body of the keyboard doesn't cut off where the keys end, and supports so much of your wrist, you don't notice that it's so thick, the "desk surface" is just that much higher.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#28

Post by tjoff » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

oposa wrote: post #20

tjoff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around. The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R... As for touchpads they kind of suck as an…

> But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprim…

We are talking about diy though? So I don't see how any of that is relevant?

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#29

Post by bsdubernerd » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

EL_Loco wrote: post #19

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

Are you kidding, right? Some people have a natural predisposition to issues such as carpal tunnel and don't need to use a keyboard at all to exacerbate the problem.

Traditional keyboards are simply not great for a lot of reasons. I experimented with tons of different keyboards and keyboard layouts mostly out of curiosity. You don't need to go far to feel the difference: microsoft curved keyboards are already much better than most regular keyboards.

Once you realize you can reduce finger travel by orienting the keyboard to the natural direction of the finger flexion you won't go back easily, and you'd likely want to go further with something you can orient in any way you like.

And yes, 'ortholinear' plays a big part in how you position the keys. I've used a lot earlier models of fully split keyboards such as the "comfort keyboard", but it never felt as natural as a simple linear grid, as I tended to put the keyboard at weird angles just to achieve what a simple vertical array of keys does. Heck, I'll go as far as saying that if you want to experiment without going crazy, the first step would be to try an ortholinear keyboard. It makes more difference.

I've personally settled on a Kinesis Advantage Pro. It does many things right out of the box. I can only complain about the function keys, but I barely use them anyway. It's not fully split, but the position is good enough, and it avoids the issue of fixing the keyboard pads to the table in order to avoid movement which is an issue I had with all split keyboards (and no, a rubberized mat is not enough).

I think the price is right for the build quality, and I didn't want to go the DIY route mostly because I have other projects going on (a DIY keyboard is a lot of work - I have plenty of respect for those who make even a flat one).

Edit: typo.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#30

Post by tjoff » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

EL_Loco wrote: post #19

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

I don't think it can be argued that they aren't more ergonomic than a regular keyboard. If you manage to create an uncomfortable position with a split keyboard you have the luxury to adapt... And I haven't seen people claiming that it is the holy grail, just that it is better.

Many otholinear keyboard are in a grid, yes. I guess mostly because it is easy, aesthetics and it fits everyone as good/bad. Many keyboards have their rows at different height to adapt to the different length of each finger. But how much? Depends on hand size and preference it is hard to imagine one being mass produced.