Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What is Traitorware?

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 44 posts

Re: What is Traitorware?

#21

Post by drdaeman »

anigbrowl wrote: post #15

Bullshit. My camera's serial number in the file is what enables me to get paid. When I want anonymity I'll use EXIFtool and wipe the metadata because I feel like it. EFF are annoyingly patronizing sometimes, and this is one of them.

So you say it's Hacker News here... Okay, have you ever heard of steganography? And are you sure your camera isn't covertly embedding something into image data (not metadata), like printers do with yellow dots?

And there are a lot of different watermarking algorithms, some of which are capable of surviving basic image operations, like resizing or color balance adjustment.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#22

Post by palish »

drdaeman wrote: post #21
anigbrowl wrote: post #15

Bullshit. My camera's serial number in the file is what enables me to get paid. When I want anonymity I'll use EXIFtool and wipe the metadata because I feel like it. EFF are annoyingly patronizing sometimes, and this is one of them.

So you say it's Hacker News here... Okay, have you ever heard of steganography? And are you sure your camera isn't covertly embedding something into image data (not metadata), like printers do with yellow dots? And there are a lot of different watermarking algorithms, some of which are capable of surviving basic image operations, like resizing or color balance adjustment.

Could you provide reference links for what you're talking about? It seems like very interesting reading.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#23

Post by Create »

palish wrote: post #22
drdaeman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say it's Hacker News here... Okay, have you ever heard of steganography? And are you sure your camera isn't covertly embedding something into image data (not metadata), like printers do with yellow dots? And there are a lot of different watermarking algorithms, some of which are capable of surviving basic image operations, like resizing or color balance adjustment.

Could you provide reference links for what you're talking about? It seems like very interesting reading.

As all detector arrays, digital sensors have a fingerprint/signature/profile [however you look at it] that can affect noise/(d)efficiency/colour etc.

This used to be all too apparent, even Kodak digital cameras had a correction-filter file calibrated for each camera to adjust white balance etc. that came with the camera.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#24

Post by drdaeman »

palish wrote: post #22
drdaeman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say it's Hacker News here... Okay, have you ever heard of steganography? And are you sure your camera isn't covertly embedding something into image data (not metadata), like printers do with yellow dots? And there are a lot of different watermarking algorithms, some of which are capable of surviving basic image operations, like resizing or color balance adjustment.

Could you provide reference links for what you're talking about? It seems like very interesting reading.

There's a known legit (non-covert) use of digital watermarking in Epson PhotoPC 3000Z and the Kodak DC-290: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_watermarking#Secure_dig...

I don't know about covert embedding, but as it's possible, I won't be surprised if it really exists.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#25

Post by _pius »

benatkin wrote: post #13

I'm not impressed with the article. This part in particular seems lacking in perspective: > Traitorware is not some science-fiction vision of the future. It is the present. Indeed, the Sony rootkit dates back to 2005. We're firmly in science-fiction territory and most everyone who would pay attention to this article knows it. This reminds me of when the EFF pleaded with its audience not to buy an iPad. What good is a…

We're firmly in science-fiction territory and most everyone who would pay attention to this article knows it.

What's your justification for saying this? The author of the article laid out a series of examples supporting the contrary point.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#26

Post by motters »

nickpinkston wrote: post #9
_delirium wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most people know about this sort of thing. Most non-techies I've talked to are actually quite surprised about the printer thing: the idea that a printer would secretly print a pattern of light yellow dots on your paper that wasn't in your source file is very surprising to everyone I've mentioned it to. It's the sort of thing that's weird enough that some people think I must be telling them a conspiracy…

Yea, it's true. Companies aren't really acting in our best interests - probably the legals driving this one. It should also be mentioned that your car probably has a black box that records what you're doing - already used in many court cases.

Well I can confirm that all vehicles manufactured in Europe after 2002 do have something comparable to a "black box", recording all sorts of engine parameters which can subsequently be downloaded for analysis.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#28

Post by cookiecaper »

anigbrowl wrote: post #17
pjscott wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EXIF metadata is a problem for people who would like anonymity and don't know how to use EXIFtool. The EFF is concerned with them, not outliers like you.

Whoops! I thought I was reading Hacker News. Silly me.

The EFF's target audience extends beyond the reach of HN. This article was certainly not written for the exclusive benefit of HN users, who are generally already wary of this sort of thing.

EFF works to set legal precedents and secure the rights and privileges of computer users throughout the United States, not just those who read industry periodicals or aggregators.

Re: What is Traitorware?

#29

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

towelrod wrote: post #18
nickpinkston wrote: post #2

I love the coining of this word - let's claim the language high ground on this. Do mainstream people even know/care about this yet?

Most people don't care about things like this at all. Look at how many of them happily use Facebook. If Apple put in a warning screen that said, "Angry Birds is requesting the following information: your location, your contact list, and your phone number. Is that ok?", then I would bet at least 90% of the users would just click "sure, no problem". We are losing this battle because very few people care about privacy a…

We are losing this battle because very few people care about privacy any more.

Rephrase: "We have lost this battle because privacy disappeared a long time ago." This isn't a new concern: I remember Usenet discussions over ten years ago about the loss of privacy due to the amount of personal data stored in large corporate databases and how easy it was for that data to be stored and transferred. It's increased exponentially since then. Look, 2 months ago I wanted to send a friend a snail-mail letter but I couldn't remember her whole address. A quick hop to Google Street View and I just "drove" down her street from my computer 120 miles away until I recognized her house and got the address off the sign.

Seriously guys, find another battle to fight: this one was lost a long time ago. Database Nation http://oreilly.com/catalog/9781565926530/ was written a decade ago!

Oh, and Merry Christmas :-)

Re: What is Traitorware?

#30

Post by nickpinkston »

nickpinkston wrote: post #9
_delirium wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most people know about this sort of thing. Most non-techies I've talked to are actually quite surprised about the printer thing: the idea that a printer would secretly print a pattern of light yellow dots on your paper that wasn't in your source file is very surprising to everyone I've mentioned it to. It's the sort of thing that's weird enough that some people think I must be telling them a conspiracy…

Yea, it's true. Companies aren't really acting in our best interests - probably the legals driving this one. It should also be mentioned that your car probably has a black box that records what you're doing - already used in many court cases.

I'm talking in addition to the OBD systems. This one can also record telemetry (steering angle, wheel slip, etc.).
Post reply on HN