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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

nytimes.com

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Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#21

Post by onion2k »

javagram wrote: post #10

“In other cases, highly compensated engineers may see themselves as independent operators who have plenty of leverage on their own and thus do not need to join a union effort.” This is definitely my feeling. When I can just open up LinkedIn and browse all the unsolicited interview requests I get, I don’t end up feeling like I really need a union to protect my current job - I can always just leave and go somewhere els…

I can always just leave and go somewhere else if I’m unhappy.

You think you can, and hopefully you actually can, but your employer might have other ideas... https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...

I'll expand on that slightly - the point is that employers are not beyond illegally getting together to restrict our access to alternative jobs. While it feels like we can just get a new role with a couple of phone calls, we might not be getting the best deal for ourselves regardless.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#22

Post by smallbigfish »

duxup wrote: post #16
LarryDarrell wrote: post #9

I used to be all around anti-union. Now that I'm older I regret that position. There are bad unions and there are good unions. Sometimes they can be corrupt, but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with. It's an imperfect solution, but it's the only one that seems to work. The idea that we are all lone super stars that need to negotiate for ourselves is not only selfish, bu…

> but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with I'm not convinced that is the case, nor is it an either or (union or corporate powers). Your protection by the union depends on what the union negotiates... beyond that their ability to effect change pretty much stops there. Then you are again at the mercy of your employer. I've had first had experience with "oh yeah they can d…

You only have the current benefits because some sort of union fought for them. Call it government, call it whatever but it was an organization fighting on your behalf.

> beyond that their ability to effect change pretty much stops there.

Is that true? You can't negotiate even further by yourself? I think you do.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#23

Post by ahelwer »

negamax wrote: post #7

The benefit in tech is options. Don't like your job, get another one. Don't like your boss, get another one. For many locations it's just the matter of turning a button on Linkedin or for many people sending some emails. That keeps people idealistic, vocal and demanding of the behavior from their employer/bosses. This is not the norm in other business functions. Unfortunately.

This current state of affairs gives employees a lot of power, as you observed, but it's important to realize it will not last. The downturn will come. The question is whether we want to use our current ephemeral labor power to protect ourselves when the downturn comes, because organization will be 100x more difficult when things go to shit and people don't think they have the luxury of risking their career to build a union.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#24

Post by negamax »

mawburn wrote: post #19

Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.

I don't know how to feel about it. There are some really bad employers out there. Tech culture is fairly liberal and new. I remember reading a book long ago where managers would sit on a higher chair in negotiations. It was a different atmosphere.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#25

Post by mavelikara »

mawburn wrote: post #19

Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.

Unions exist in high demand positions too - sports, entertainment etc. Can tech unions be modelled closer to those, and less on the style of jobs you mentioned?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#26

Post by noego »

This is going to be a unpopular opinion. I think a tech union would likely be good for the average tech worker - and bad for absolutely everyone else, broader society included.

Cartels and price-fixing agreements are extremely lucrative, which is why they were commonplace until outlawed by antitrust legislation, and why cartels like OPEC still operate today. Unions and collective bargaining are no different. Unions are equivalent to a cartel of labor-suppliers, and collective bargaining is identical to price-fixing.

Just like with cartels and price-fixing agreements, unionizing would likely benefit the average tech worker. It would also have an extremely bad effect on innovation, bureaucracy, and cost-of-tech-development which would spill over to consumers in the form of higher prices.

I'm in favor of breaking up big corporations, as well as implementing a wealth tax, raising the top tax rates, and strengthening the social safety net. But I don't think encouraging the formation of cartels and price-fixing agreements is in society's best interests.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#27

Post by dymk »

LarryDarrell wrote: post #18
CSMastermind wrote: post #14

In my opinion, unions are very valuable in cases where employees cannot effectively realize market value for their skillset. This can happen for a number of reasons: 1. In cases of specialized skills (like working at a factory where you've trained on a particular machine). 2. In cases of natural or artificial monopolies (like working for a federal government). 3. In cases where companies and workers incentives are mi…

How confident are you that this climate will continue for the rest of your working life? How confident are you that this climate will extend past your working life?

We can form a union when we need to form a union. There's no point in forming one just in case software engineering no longer becomes a sought-after skilled job.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#28

Post by mawburn »

_dczq wrote: post #20
dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Is the average tenure truly due to "employee choice" or simply a result of the system we created?

Its employee choice. People get bored, they get tired of processes, and there are plenty of companies willing to hire them that will allow them to try something new, do something different, and deal with different processes.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#29

Post by malvosenior »

ahelwer wrote: post #23
negamax wrote: post #7

The benefit in tech is options. Don't like your job, get another one. Don't like your boss, get another one. For many locations it's just the matter of turning a button on Linkedin or for many people sending some emails. That keeps people idealistic, vocal and demanding of the behavior from their employer/bosses. This is not the norm in other business functions. Unfortunately.

This current state of affairs gives employees a lot of power, as you observed, but it's important to realize it will not last. The downturn will come. The question is whether we want to use our current ephemeral labor power to protect ourselves when the downturn comes, because organization will be 100x more difficult when things go to shit and people don't think they have the luxury of risking their career to build a…

If a downturn comes, it will be due to larger economic reasons. If firms aren't profitable and need to cut costs, having a union that makes that more difficult could actually exacerbate the downturn. I'd rather have to lay off under performers and keep the company in business, than go out of business and have everyone lose their jobs.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#30

Post by malvosenior »

mawburn wrote: post #19

Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.

I agree. I think the answer is to improve salary transparency to help alleviate the information asymmetry between employer and employee. Things like https://levels.fyi are making good progress here.

I have no interest in joining a union but I absolutely take all of the salary information I can get my hands on into account when negotiating my pay.

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