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Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

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Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#21

Post by kryptiskt »

Fnoord wrote: post #14
blodovnik wrote: post #8

What does Hurd uniquely solve?

Which microkernel based OSes are ccurrently deployed? Which of these are open source?

QNX is widespread in embedded systems, it's sadly closed source (it's a magnificent OS).

L4 is a family of operating systems, sharing an API, not code. The ancestor was built to prove that microkernels could be fast. SeL4 is a formally proved variant. They are open source. They are also used in embedded systems, like baseband processors.

Minix 3 is an academic project by Andrew Tanenbaum. A few eyebrows were raised when it turned out that it is present in all new Intel chipsets.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#22

Post by pjmlp »

harry8 wrote: post #18
robotbikes wrote: post #12

I think that it is exciting that people are still working on Hurd and there is a new release synced with Buster. I think there is latent potential in microkernels and that we may actually be at in position to exploit some of the benefits such as heightened security and stability. While at the same time the performance cost of context switching could be reduced due to the higher number of cores on modern chips (especi…

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Maybe you should take your eyes out of the UNIX clone desktop and look into OSes powering life critical embedded deployments.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#23

Post by pjmlp »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #2

I'm curious, but why are people still spending time and resources on Hurd? Is it curiosity or is there some use case for Hurd that I'm not aware of? Thanks.

Because we already have enough UNIX clones and there are people that care about bringing forward the computing stack with modern concepts.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#24

Post by robotbikes »

harry8 wrote: post #18
robotbikes wrote: post #12

I think that it is exciting that people are still working on Hurd and there is a new release synced with Buster. I think there is latent potential in microkernels and that we may actually be at in position to exploit some of the benefits such as heightened security and stability. While at the same time the performance cost of context switching could be reduced due to the higher number of cores on modern chips (especi…

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Well Intel chose minix to run their often despised management engine, so their engineers saw some benefit there to the microkernel architecture. Google is putting at least nomimal developer resources into Fuschia. And the L4 microkernel and derivatives displayed that microkernels aren't doomed to be slow.

I think that Linux is probably going to be the dominant free software kernel for quite some time especially since it has finally gotten to the point of at least receiving nominal driver support by hardware manufacturers. So Hurd will be a curiosity for now but considering its history it is still very cool that development continues. Whether it will become useful in ways that Linux is not remains to be seen.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#26

Post by pjmlp »

Fnoord wrote: post #14
blodovnik wrote: post #8

What does Hurd uniquely solve?

Which microkernel based OSes are ccurrently deployed? Which of these are open source?

Symbian (you can still buy handsets), QNX, L4, INTEGRITY OS, GenodeOS, muen, Fuchsia.

Then you have the hybrid ones from Apple, Android with Treble (classical Linux drivers are referring to as legacy driver on the documentation) and Windows is kind of hybrid as well.

As of Catalina, Apple was very clear that the long term roadmap for their OSes is to move all drivers and kernel extensions into userspace, which will be a gradual process.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#27

Post by harry8 »

pjmlp wrote: post #22
harry8 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Maybe you should take your eyes out of the UNIX clone desktop and look into OSes powering life critical embedded deployments.

Followed all your links and found precisely nothing.

So many microkernel zealots, down vote storm ahoy. Must be annoying for those involved who are serious engineers and researchers.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#28

Post by zitterbewegung »

robotbikes wrote: post #24
harry8 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Well Intel chose minix to run their often despised management engine, so their engineers saw some benefit there to the microkernel architecture. Google is putting at least nomimal developer resources into Fuschia. And the L4 microkernel and derivatives displayed that microkernels aren't doomed to be slow. I think that Linux is probably going to be the dominant free software kernel for quite some time especially since…

The L4 microkernel is currently being used by Apple in the secure enclave.

See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209632

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#29

Post by harry8 »

robotbikes wrote: post #24
harry8 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I've been hearing about those benefits for at least 20 years. None yet actually sighted in the wild. Any attempted explanations from the microkernel religious zealots has been thoroughly unconvincing (because mach is slow, so?). Maybe you're right, I'd love to see it if you are. But while prior performance is no guarantee of the future, as they say in the funds management adverts, a pattern of repeated failure i…

Well Intel chose minix to run their often despised management engine, so their engineers saw some benefit there to the microkernel architecture. Google is putting at least nomimal developer resources into Fuschia. And the L4 microkernel and derivatives displayed that microkernels aren't doomed to be slow. I think that Linux is probably going to be the dominant free software kernel for quite some time especially since…

I've worked on l4 fwiw.

Show me those benefits on the wild. Intel's use of Minix, Qualcomm's use of l4 aren't showing me those benefits yet. If that's changed and they have I really do want to see it. Pointing out i haven't yet shouldn't be a sin, it should be quick to prove me wrong with some reasonable links with production ready more secure, more robust OSes. I'd pay performance for security and reliability in many instances. But AFAIK I can't.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#30

Post by philjohn »

harry8 wrote: post #27
pjmlp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should take your eyes out of the UNIX clone desktop and look into OSes powering life critical embedded deployments.

Followed all your links and found precisely nothing. So many microkernel zealots, down vote storm ahoy. Must be annoying for those involved who are serious engineers and researchers.

QNX for one.
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