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How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 36 posts

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#21
post #3

> "In Norway, the punishment is just to take away someone's liberty. The other rights stay. Prisoners can vote, they can have access to school, to health care; they have the same rights as any Norwegian citizen. Because inmates are human beings. They have done wrong, they must be punished, but they are still human beings." > "In Norway, all will be released - there are no life sentences," he reminds me. Really? Even…

>I don't even think deranged people like serial killers and pedophile rapists can change.

Assuming you are right, the great majority of prisoners fall into other groups. These prisoners are going to be released at some point, and if you use this effective rehabilitation program, then they will be much less likely to commit more crimes against citizens in the community.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no life sentences; this does not mean that individuals can’t be detained indefinitely. If a prisoner is not judged fit for release, their sentence can be extended by up to I think four or five years at a time. The Norwegian prison system isn’t releasing flocks of “serial killers and paedophile rapists” as a result of not imposing life sentences at conviction.

Also, i don't know if norway has the same kind of system (i assume it does. Most western european nations have this). but "terbeschikkingstelling"(TBS) is usually a punishment for people with severe issues like serial killers. see: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbeschikkingstelling_(Nederl...

Link for English speakers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#23
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well pedophiles and rapists arent all given life sentences in the US system, it varies greatly So which part do you disagree with? That prisoners can vote?

the fact that prisoners cannot vote seems bizarre to me. This seems like a massive tool to prevent your political opponents from voting.

Yeah both the 13th and 14th amendments let states create arbitrary conditions for voting for state and federal issues. The only carveout being to prove that its a racially motivated condition and most of the states have matter of fact prisoner disenfranchisement that existed long before any correlation with race, so there isnt currently a challenge except for individual legislatures to make new laws.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#24
post #2

Norway also has the world’s lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent, while America sees 75 percent of its prisoners re-offend within five years of release. [0] It's interesting that in the U.S. many people champion the power of incentives to produce goods and services efficiently yet are blind to the perverse incentives of having privately-run prisons. Of course a corporation whose profit comes from running prisons does…

20% is still higher than I expected for Norway’s system, but I suppose there’s tons of factors contributing to recidivism.

There’s so many possible avenues a person could take to commit crimes that send them to jail. I think it’s worth using prison as a way to psychologically investigate what lead people to crime or recidivism, and try to understand crime from micro and macro levels more. Like some kind of criminal science retrospective that goes beyond solving a crime, and also provides a meta post-crime analysis. Of course, this isn’t perfect either and probably will receive privacy and medical qualms, but I also don’t know of a definitive answer about what a realistic hope is to reach for concerning criminal justice. As far as human history goes back, there has always been crime and it has always sucked.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#25
The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society and an extreme reluctance to imprison or even pursue certain crimes that would be unacceptable anywhere else. Combined with being caught hiding data such as demographic information I'd take any fellation of scandanavian policy with a grain of salt. I assume the community here considers themselves logically minded so just ask yourself this. If this approach is as miraculous as its put forth to be why hasn't it ever reached as widespread implementation not just in evil America but anywhere in the world? The concept of rehabilitative imprisonment is almost as old as imprisonment itself.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#26

The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society and an extreme reluctance to imprison or even pursue certain crimes that would be unacceptable anywhere else. Combined with being caught hiding data such as demographic information I'd take any fellation of scandanavian policy with a grain of salt. I assume the community here considers themselves logical…

> The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society

Citation needed. This claim gets thrown around a lot, but is there any evidence or actual research backing the claim that diversity leads to crime?

There is plenty of evidence that disenfranchisement leads to crime, but you can have diversity without disenfranchisement.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#27
Bit of an unpopular opinion here: either you have a criminal correction system or a justice system or a hybrid of the two. My unpopular opinion is that if justice is to be administered in any shape or form it supersedes the need to correct a criminal.

I am sure many here will agree with "Ends don't justify means". That goes both ways,the end goal of rehabilitating a criminal does not justify the means.

To me justice means to correct a wrong done. Someone did some wrong therefore a fairly measured punishment is given so that the wrong doer suffers and/or makes up for their wrong actions. It is this idea that when someone commits a wrong they are indebted for that wrong. It does not have to be a criminal situation, when you see someone suffer and offer help, you saw wrong and attempted to correct it,you attempted to administer justice even though there was no criminal.

Now, a debt can be forgiven but it must be explicit. I understand and can accept mercy being shown to anyone. The core of my disagreement here is portrayal of justice to mean correction and rehabilitation of the wrongdoer. In the eyes of justice, the debt being paid is all that counts. If rehabilitation is a priority to a society, mercy needs to be explicitly shown,it should not be done in a way that waters down justice to where we say "you owe this much but due to the end result we will only accept so much repayment of wrongs from you",you're saying the unpaid debt is ignored,not forgiven. if there is a victim,the victim should also have a say.

I hope I wasn't all over the place with my comment. All in all, I am mostly displeased with the end result being the focus here. I do need good neighbors but not at the cost of graying-down justice.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#28

The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society and an extreme reluctance to imprison or even pursue certain crimes that would be unacceptable anywhere else. Combined with being caught hiding data such as demographic information I'd take any fellation of scandanavian policy with a grain of salt. I assume the community here considers themselves logical…

Yet when similar approaches have been trialled in the UK, they worked just as well. When you consider the cost per year of imprisonment recidivism and rehabilitation should the main priority. Homogeneity is not required.

The whole "tough on crime" headlines and media campaigns in certain sections of the media, and certain shades of politics are the cause of much of our problem with overcrowded and brutal prisons. Tough sentencing does not work. It's been demonstrated decade after decade. It flies well for voters seeking vengeance. The same voters who'd probably bring back hanging tomorrow if there were a referendum. That's not justice.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't even think deranged people like serial killers and pedophile rapists can change. It's a lot better to base this judgement on real data than on the vengeful feelings of the wronged. Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant…

> Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant people purely out of vengeance. I don't think punishment for criminal action is "revenge" or "vengeance". In theory, it is suppose to stop the possibility of it occurring again and hopefull…

> I don't think punishment for criminal action is "revenge" or "vengeance". In theory, it is suppose to stop the possibility of it occurring again and hopefully deter people attempting it.

Again, why wouldn't we leave this determination to the data? If the effect of punishment is practical, then we should look at the practical results of punishment versus rehabilitation.

Do you want to live in a safer society, or do you want to live in a society that fulfills your emotional need for retribution at the cost of efficacy and the rights of others?

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#30

The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society and an extreme reluctance to imprison or even pursue certain crimes that would be unacceptable anywhere else. Combined with being caught hiding data such as demographic information I'd take any fellation of scandanavian policy with a grain of salt. I assume the community here considers themselves logical…

> The ugly truth is a lot of 'benefits' of the scandanavian approach come from a highly (for now) homogenous society Citation needed. This claim gets thrown around a lot, but is there any evidence or actual research backing the claim that diversity leads to crime? There is plenty of evidence that disenfranchisement leads to crime, but you can have diversity without disenfranchisement.

Where are your citations that the Scandinavian style of relatively luxurious prisoner treatment is more effective? If we're going by correlations there's probably no more evidence for this than the correlation with homogeneous ordered societies. Probably less since you have like a couple datapoints exclusively in northern europe while the whole world tends to show a trend of imprisonment outcomes being better in nonbanana republics.
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