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Hillbillies Need No Elegy

bittersoutherner.com

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Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#21

Post by jpfed »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #2

These sorts of elaborate rebuttals, like the article or the art project it references, aren't that different from the works of outsiders that they seek to prove wrong. It seemingly is the case that Appalachia attracts a kind of journalist-meets-artist who finds plenty of material for a culture-tinged exposé of somewhat-thoughtful poverty and hardship porn, but a curated photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Kno…

>but a curated photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Know is aimed at the level of The New Yorker, and not something relatable to everyday folk in the suburbs or the Midwest

FYI I'm a Midwesterner and problems relating to pictures isn't a regional trait that I'm aware of. A picture of X is in pretty direct correspondence to the visual experience of X itself, so it turns out pictures are pretty easy to digest! If you're a Midwesterner, you should definitely give pictures a try. If you're not a Midwesterner, it's possible that meeting a few more of them would change your idea of what they can relate to.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#22

Post by sudosteph »

nrf1 wrote: post #4
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #2

These sorts of elaborate rebuttals, like the article or the art project it references, aren't that different from the works of outsiders that they seek to prove wrong. It seemingly is the case that Appalachia attracts a kind of journalist-meets-artist who finds plenty of material for a culture-tinged exposé of somewhat-thoughtful poverty and hardship porn, but a curated photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Kno…

> It's odd how much Appalachia has gripped the popular imagination, and how outsiders and a few well-positioned insiders perpetuate it. Pennsylvania, Ohio, and North Carolina are key swing states. That's the primary reason Appalachia gets so much attention. This electoral reality goes all the way back to the war on poverty.

Yes, but the Appalacian contingent is not a majority in any of those states. They just are historically less anti-union than other rural areas (while still socially conservative) so they can swing a bit. Overall the big cities and suburbs are usually the deciding factor there.

If anything, Appalachian are uniquely under-represented nationally. While the region as a whole contains nearly 25 million people, WV is the only state to have two Appalacian senators. I think TN has one as well, but, overall the political power of Appalachia does not at all seem sufficient to warrant extra attention.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#23

Post by hitekker »

scarejunba wrote: post #11

I've got to tell you: every subculture of humans has fractal complexity that is not captured by any representation. We're reduced to using blind men's descriptions of elephants. Nothing can be adequately explained in any book, not Appalachia and not the subculture of people in a semi-urban locality outside of Kandy. This is natural, so we use shortcuts as heuristic predictive tools: so the Russians throw numbers at w…

>So, no, the fact that there is complexity and uniqueness in culture is normal. It is not interesting. The only value is what you extract as the weak trendline. Imagine a scatterplot with loads of overlapping red and blue dots, but there are more blue dots above some line than red dots, by a considerable number. Most of them will interact, some red dot may even be higher than any blue dots, but you will be reduced to the fact that blue is higher than red on the graph. It is a weak decisioning tool because the complexity is both incompressible and useless for prediction.

There is wisdom in your words.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#24

Post by dang »

50208 wrote: post #20
dang wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regional flamewar isn't ok here, just like nationalistic flamewar or race flamewar or other flamewars. Could you please not post like this to HN? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Isn't this what the article "Hillbillies Need No Elegy" is about? Isn't this about their response to a book about the region? I grew up in the region and this is my experience.

Your experience is welcome, but you need to actually share your experience. That's very different from posting a putdown rant about a region and the people who live there.

The fact that you grew up there is relevant to what you're saying, of course. But it's not relevant to whether your comment broke the site guidelines. Internet forums can't handle that level of nuance, and a comment like this is going to lead to a big old flamewar by default.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#25

Post by onlydeadheroes »

madhadron wrote: post #10
whatshisface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is seriously not that big a difference between the reading level of random comments on the internet and the reading level of the New Yorker, or of the average thinkpiece. Self-styled intellectuals love to pretend that they are writing in a sophisticated secret code language, but that hasn't been true since they quit Latin.

And, to be fair, English is a vastly more sophisticated language with layers of nuance that constitute codes than Latin.

Did you ever study Latin?

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#26

Post by javajosh »

csa wrote: post #15
whatshisface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is seriously not that big a difference between the reading level of random comments on the internet and the reading level of the New Yorker, or of the average thinkpiece. Self-styled intellectuals love to pretend that they are writing in a sophisticated secret code language, but that hasn't been true since they quit Latin.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

>C2

I wonder if there is a similar scale for cartoons, and if (inscrutable) New Yorker cartoons are at D1 or higher.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#27

Post by dash2 »

jessaustin wrote: post #3
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #2

These sorts of elaborate rebuttals, like the article or the art project it references, aren't that different from the works of outsiders that they seek to prove wrong. It seemingly is the case that Appalachia attracts a kind of journalist-meets-artist who finds plenty of material for a culture-tinged exposé of somewhat-thoughtful poverty and hardship porn, but a curated photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Kno…

Sure, but Vance is more "wrong" than his detractors are. He's the one who sees all poor people, and all poor people alike.

Got quotes to support this claim?

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#28

Post by dash2 »

SKILNER wrote: post #17
scarejunba wrote: post #11

I've got to tell you: every subculture of humans has fractal complexity that is not captured by any representation. We're reduced to using blind men's descriptions of elephants. Nothing can be adequately explained in any book, not Appalachia and not the subculture of people in a semi-urban locality outside of Kandy. This is natural, so we use shortcuts as heuristic predictive tools: so the Russians throw numbers at w…

> every subculture of humans has fractal complexity that is not captured by any representation Yes, and the facile reduction of that complexity is the source for much of the political stupidity making us miserable. Also, thank you, Internet, for spreading it around so prolifically.

Counterpoint: "fuck nuance".

https://kieranhealy.org/files/papers/fuck-nuance.pdf

"I do claim that the more we tend to value nuance as such—that is, as a virtue to be cultivated, or as the first thing to look for when assessing arguments—the more we will tend to slide toward one or more of three nuance traps. First is the ever more detailed, merely empirical description of the world. This is the nuance of the fine-grain. It is a rejection of theory masquerading as increased accuracy...."

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#29

Post by csa »

javajosh wrote: post #26
csa wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

>C2 I wonder if there is a similar scale for cartoons, and if (inscrutable) New Yorker cartoons are at D1 or higher.

1. I don’t think that there is a D1 on the scale.

2. A scale for cartoons would be interesting. The top level would probably require something like awareness of current events, knowledge of one or more complex/academic theoretical concepts, and deep cultural embeddedness and awareness of cultural trends.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#30

Post by csa »

csa wrote: post #15
whatshisface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is seriously not that big a difference between the reading level of random comments on the internet and the reading level of the New Yorker, or of the average thinkpiece. Self-styled intellectuals love to pretend that they are writing in a sophisticated secret code language, but that hasn't been true since they quit Latin.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

Slight mistake that I can’t edit — New Yorker articles can range from C1-C2... maybe even down to B2 at times.

Regardless, all of the main points still hold.

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