Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950 • Hacker News Board

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#21

Post by soulofmischief » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #9

mc32 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can make plastics from other raw materials, plants included. Interestingly, bioplastics can be mfg with CO2.

Very cool! Just another reason I love plants.

“Well, what would you say if there was such a plant that could substitute for all wood pulp paper, all fossil fuels, would make most of our fibers naturally, make everything from dynamite to plastic, grows in all 50 states and that one acre of it would replace 4.1 acres of trees, and that if you used about 6% of the U.S. land to raise it as an energy crop, even on our marginal lands, this plant would produce all 75 quadrillion billion BTUs needed to run America each year? Would that help save the planet?”

...

“Yeah? What is it?”

“Hemp.”

...

“Well, Mr. Herer, did you know that hemp is also marijuana?”

“Yes, of course I know, I’ve been writing about it for about 40 hours a week for the past 17 years.”

“Well, you know marijuana’s illegal, don’t you? You can’t use it.”

“Not even to save the world?”

“No. It’s illegal”, he sternly informed me. “You cannot use something illegal.”

https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-2/

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#22

Post by soulofmischief » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #19

ianai wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very cool! Just another reason I love plants.

Plants require water. Yes we can solve the plastic problem by growing more plants, but then we will have a water problem as plants, heavy industry, chemical production, recycling (which uses a lot of water), power production (most use steam), live stock, and human water consumption all compete. I mean I guess we could melt the ice caps for more water...

What an incredible false dichotomy. Which do you want, less fossil fuels, or melting the ice caps?

Oh wait! I forgot that burning fossil fuels is already melting the ice caps.

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#23

Post by FlyingAvatar » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #10

spodek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't the volume. It's the distribution. Some of it is in your bloodstream. And your children's, messing with your and their endocrine systems, among other problems. Some of it is in the bellies animals around the world. How do you plan to get it? We can't beat the laws of thermodynamics. The stuff is out there and dispersing more.

You had me until thermodynamics. We're obviously not getting every substance in our bloodstream like we are with plastics so I don't think thermodynamics is the issue here.

I think he was referring specifically to entropy in his reference to thermodynamics. Once we extract the source materials from the earth, turn them into plastics and distribute them, there is no cheap way to undo it.

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#24

Post by SomeOldThrow » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

nawtacawp wrote: post #14

spodek wrote: post #6

Missing from most environmental conversation is how much you can improve your life avoiding polluting things. What you replace packaged food, flying, and such with is fresh fruits and vegetables and local community. You learn that while one flight will bring you closer to a distant loved one, flying in general is what led to your "community" living where you can't see each other. When I point out that you, the reader…

Western society may be a large consumer, but you are educating the wrong crowd if you want to make a difference. Higher income countries tend to do a much better job of recycling. This illustrates the problem: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/inadequately-managed-plas...

As pointed out in the parent, recycling is emphatically less important than reduction of production.

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#25

Post by titzer » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #18

Why is this necessarily bad?

Because a large portion of it ends up as both macro and microplastics in the environment, which has a severely negative effect on ecosystems.

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#26

Post by devoply » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

nawtacawp wrote: post #14

spodek wrote: post #6

Missing from most environmental conversation is how much you can improve your life avoiding polluting things. What you replace packaged food, flying, and such with is fresh fruits and vegetables and local community. You learn that while one flight will bring you closer to a distant loved one, flying in general is what led to your "community" living where you can't see each other. When I point out that you, the reader…

Western society may be a large consumer, but you are educating the wrong crowd if you want to make a difference. Higher income countries tend to do a much better job of recycling. This illustrates the problem: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/inadequately-managed-plas...

No they don't they export all their plastic crap to 3rd world countries and feel smug about it. See problem is managed and under control.

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#27

Post by elhudy » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #6

Missing from most environmental conversation is how much you can improve your life avoiding polluting things. What you replace packaged food, flying, and such with is fresh fruits and vegetables and local community. You learn that while one flight will bring you closer to a distant loved one, flying in general is what led to your "community" living where you can't see each other. When I point out that you, the reader…

Can you help me to understand why flying is a part of the plastic waste conversation here? Outside of business travel I can't imagine many people are flying around on a consistent basis.

Avoiding commercial flight, and pushing for the public to do the same, seems more ostentatious than practical. Why not push for carbon offsets instead?

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#28

Post by ryanmercer » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #22

rpiguy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plants require water. Yes we can solve the plastic problem by growing more plants, but then we will have a water problem as plants, heavy industry, chemical production, recycling (which uses a lot of water), power production (most use steam), live stock, and human water consumption all compete. I mean I guess we could melt the ice caps for more water...

What an incredible false dichotomy. Which do you want, less fossil fuels, or melting the ice caps? Oh wait! I forgot that burning fossil fuels is already melting the ice caps.

>What an incredible false dichotomy.

I think their point is more "We're already running out of water, aquifer depletion is a thing on multiple continents and there are now cities that have officially run out of fresh water. Adding even more farming, which requires water input above and beyond natural rainfall, is just going to worsen another dire issue".

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#29

Post by nawtacawp » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #24

nawtacawp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western society may be a large consumer, but you are educating the wrong crowd if you want to make a difference. Higher income countries tend to do a much better job of recycling. This illustrates the problem: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/inadequately-managed-plas...

As pointed out in the parent, recycling is emphatically less important than reduction of production.

If you are interested in stats, this is a great piece that expands on the overall issue.

https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution

Re: Humans have made 8.3bn tons of plastic since 1950

#30

Post by spodek » Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

elhudy wrote: post #27

spodek wrote: post #6

Missing from most environmental conversation is how much you can improve your life avoiding polluting things. What you replace packaged food, flying, and such with is fresh fruits and vegetables and local community. You learn that while one flight will bring you closer to a distant loved one, flying in general is what led to your "community" living where you can't see each other. When I point out that you, the reader…

Can you help me to understand why flying is a part of the plastic waste conversation here? Outside of business travel I can't imagine many people are flying around on a consistent basis. Avoiding commercial flight, and pushing for the public to do the same, seems more ostentatious than practical. Why not push for carbon offsets instead?

I generalized from plastic to pollution in general in how reducing improves lives.

I'm not sure why so many people interpret suggestions on acting in one area as exclusive of others. I expect that people/voters acting on their values will lead others to follow.

Regarding carbon offsets, I've seen no evidence they reduce emissions and believe they increase them by motivating people to fly more.

Taxing carbon emissions as well as extraction, I think would help. I think individual behavior changes will contribute to them passing, so I promote individual reduction to help promote them (I've learned I have to clarify not only individual reduction every time to avoid misinterpretation).