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Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

eurekalert.org

21–30 of 66 posts

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#21
post #6

>understandings of genes as immutable features of biology that are fixed at conception This 'understanding' has been known to be wrong for 30+ years now. Rearrangements, microchimerism, epigenetics, chromosome organization etc. are all things that exist and modulate information transfer beyond the standard four letters or the 'environment' (whatever people think it means) and we're still only scratching the surface.…

>> DNA is not source code It is source code, it's just that source code is self-modifying.

Also the compiler is self-modifying. And the compiler flags as well. And the OS. And the chip architecture sometimes. Like, at what point do we decide that pushing the analogy further is just silly and just drop it altogether?

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#22
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This understanding was still taught like that in the 90's, western continental Europe.

True. Most of what I've been taught after high school feels like "you've been lied to, everything you were taught in high school was wrong or grossly oversimplified and now you need to unlearn it all and relearn from scratch." Makes you wonder what the purpose of high school was in the first place.

I got the same impression from people who studied chemistry after high school too though. Some things are just simplified so our children can ramp up their understanding gradually instead of having the wild complexity of the universe thrown at them in one go.

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#23
This paper is a PR gold mine but a methodological disaster, which is par for the course in "EWAS" (epigenome-wide association studies). At one point I had to remind a coauthor that pointing out structural problems in fashionable studies such as these is a quick way to lose (more) faith in modern peer review; for some reason she thought that EWAS enthusiasts gave a flying crap whether the "genes" they were studying were subject to structural variation (e.g. amplification and deletion). Ha! Ha! Ha!

Anyways. Their functional enrichment analysis is uncorrected for the known bias of the platform (something that has been repeatedly addressed by multiple authors since 2012), and no attempt appears to have been made to correct for cryptic stratification (i.e. structural polymorphisms, which are rampant in human populations, and particularly among so-called metabolic genes), though in the study population that may not be a major issue.

Quantile normalization is only appropriate if one can reasonably assert that the overall distribution of measurements is roughly the same between individuals and groups; this assumption has been shown to be invalid in the absence of positive and negative controls for gene expression, whence its original propagation, and more so for DNA methylation under various conditions. The batch correction approach used here is notorious for squashing real signal, although paradoxically that may have moderated some of the other methods choices.

Moreover, the paper demonstrates that a particular sample of high-SES vs. low-SES individuals in Cebu in the Philippines demonstrates some (fairly tiny) differences in DNA methylation at a relatively small number of CpGs (about 2000 out of 485000 or so measured and 110000 or so tested), without particular note as to whether the sites are clustered, functional, or otherwise of interest. The functional impact of these changes are difficult to interpret, partly because of the bias in the functional analysis (something that has been established for nearly a decade; the authors clearly went shopping for methods in a "confirmatory" style).

We shan't even bother to discuss the effect of [mal]nutrition on metabolism and thereby upon DNA methylation and cell composition (both intertwined, although an attempt was made to correct for the interaction), which further muddies the waters w/r/t SES as opposed to individual-level effects. The analysis is done with a fixed-effects model assuming unstructured shrinkage, which of course is a bit odd considering that the measurements have a relatively easily determined correlation structure (their sample size is sufficient to estimate this) and thus variance decomposition could have been highly informative. This is doubly odd for a population "epigenetics" study, given that variance components were literally invented in population genetics.

In conclusion, while it's a lovely piece for a PR department, the actual relevance of either the measurements or the phenomena to actual humans and public policy is quite difficult to interpret. Perhaps that was the point...

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> DNA is not source code It is source code, it's just that source code is self-modifying.

Also the compiler is self-modifying. And the compiler flags as well. And the OS. And the chip architecture sometimes. Like, at what point do we decide that pushing the analogy further is just silly and just drop it altogether?

I feel like my whole environment is self modifying, given the constant auto updating it wants to do :)

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This understanding was still taught like that in the 90's, western continental Europe.

True. Most of what I've been taught after high school feels like "you've been lied to, everything you were taught in high school was wrong or grossly oversimplified and now you need to unlearn it all and relearn from scratch." Makes you wonder what the purpose of high school was in the first place.

> Makes you wonder what the purpose of high school was in the first place.

Oh, I have an opinion about that:

Well. First and above all the first purpose of school and high school is to learn to follow authority (edit: authority in every other meanings. Tthe first authority to submit oneself to is the school). This is the first brick and if it's not assimilated in a way that suits the school the student will get thrown out of the system.

A century ago there's the industrial revolution mantra: produce workers who can read and understand semi-complex or complex instructions in written and oral forms and manipulate tools (typewriters, screwdrivers, hydraulics, mechanics, machines, etc.).

And now there's the "learn to learn" mantra because few things taught in the 'regular', 'normal' or 'general' school and high school cursus land jobs in the post-industrial and the information societies. Does not seem to apply to trade schools.

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#26
post #6

>understandings of genes as immutable features of biology that are fixed at conception This 'understanding' has been known to be wrong for 30+ years now. Rearrangements, microchimerism, epigenetics, chromosome organization etc. are all things that exist and modulate information transfer beyond the standard four letters or the 'environment' (whatever people think it means) and we're still only scratching the surface.…

I still don't buy the "There is no nature vs. nurture" statement. Maybe there's more than nature vs. nurture, or more complicated than nature vs. nurture. But totally no nature vs. nurture? Overstatement.

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> DNA is not source code It is source code, it's just that source code is self-modifying.

Also the compiler is self-modifying. And the compiler flags as well. And the OS. And the chip architecture sometimes. Like, at what point do we decide that pushing the analogy further is just silly and just drop it altogether?

I don’t disagree with you but I want to point out that it’s interesting how better software, running on an OS, running on a chip architecture, has enabled us to write better OSs and better chip which in turn allows us to write better software that allows us to repeat the cycle.

Aren’t we somehow simulating how life works? Higher abstractions/constructs improve the way the lower constructs work :). Of course, just an oversimplification.

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> DNA is not source code It is source code, it's just that source code is self-modifying.

Also the compiler is self-modifying. And the compiler flags as well. And the OS. And the chip architecture sometimes. Like, at what point do we decide that pushing the analogy further is just silly and just drop it altogether?

And yet something guides the human zygote in developing as a human. At what point do we stop focusing on refuting simplistic ideas and turn our attention to what is now known?

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> DNA is not source code It is source code, it's just that source code is self-modifying.

Also the compiler is self-modifying. And the compiler flags as well. And the OS. And the chip architecture sometimes. Like, at what point do we decide that pushing the analogy further is just silly and just drop it altogether?

That point is already defined, it is called Emacs.

Re: Poverty leaves a mark on our genes

#30
Everyone who wrote and authorized this press release ought to be fired. The paper offers no evidence of relevance to epigenetic inheritance, and has nothing to do with nature vs. nurture.

All that's going on here is that people in the Philipenes have differences in environmental exposures that affect gene expression in their immune system, and this, unsurprisingly, differs by SES. No evidence that any of these marks are more than temporary marks of current gene expression patterns let alone anything as shocking as passing through the germ line to the next generation.

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