Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way • Hacker News Board

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#21

Post by DanBC » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

People misunderstand the concept of privilege.

You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups.

Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#22

Post by clairity » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

wl wrote: post #13

protomyth wrote: post #4

Handy tip, you probably don't want to say a local, family-owned business that dates back to the 1800's is only worth $35,000. It comes off as elitist and hometown juries hate elitist with a passion. Best coverage was Legal Insurrection since they actually had people in the courtroom: https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/oberlin-college-hit-wi... (summary of coverage at bottom of article)

I'll heartily endorse Legal Insurrection's coverage, but with the caveat that they've got a bone to pick against "social justice" and leftist campus activism. It doesn't seem to get in the way of them reporting all the relevant facts in a fair way.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare.

i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")?

or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle others)?

or something else?

even if everyone gains from growing the pie, the desire for relative status seems more powerful than our desire for fairness and equality unfortunately.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#23

Post by surge » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

I saw it happen first hand once at Guilford College, another small liberal arts college. There was an incident between a group of drunken football students and some kids that were Arabic. The school didn't do its part to encourage rational and cool heads until all the facts were in and there were mobs looking for football players, even those not involved. It wasn't safe for them so had to leave campus. Once the facts were in the football players had medical evidence of being assaulted and punched with a hand wrapped with a belt which conflicted with the students story of just being jumped (if you have time to take off your belt and wrap it around your hand, you have time to escape or deescalate). Other eye witness statements lined up that both parties were drinking (the other students had been on their way to the club). In the end it seemed like the both parties were at fault but the ones claiming victim status were the original antagonizers and lost the fight so cried foul. In either case, there were calls to disband the football team and athletic program as a result of the actions of a few students. No where was the college saying wait for all the evidence to be presented, rather than going on the word of one side before reacting. They allowed the students to take over effectively and no students who encouraged the mob were ever disciplined afterwards for libel. It's a common practice at these schools to assume guilt because of race (they're white), which is just as unjust as the crimes in the past. The hard standard is to not involve mass mob or protest until evidence is provided. If schools are supposed to be institutions of higher learning and thought, they should be encouraging students to be impartial and consider all evidence and act on that and not hearsay.

Free speech standards in the US requires you have evidence to back up what you're saying if you're going to speak negatively of someone, even more so if you're going to take action against them, colleges should be encouraging that standard and rational thought over emotional reaction.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#24

Post by jccalhoun » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

> I often see people on hn saying this is all blown out of proportion and a small vocal minority but when you talk to undergrads these days, you will realize these beliefs are not just a handful of people but carry weight across the student population.

This may have to do with the student population because I teach undergrads at a community college and I have recently taught at a liberal arts college and find this really is blown out of proportion. When I try to talk to them about media literacy most (not all of course but most) say they never read the news and don't follow current events.

>They find no apparent contradiction at being the most privileged of their generation (speaking of Harvard, Oxbridge, Stanford here), yet the smaller and local the cause, the more vicious the activism. Someone they disagree with dare speak on campus? Violence, trauma, discrimination, hate.

>Getting arrested for taking off a veil in Iran? Genocide? Consumerism destroying the planet? Yawn.

This is probably because they feel they can have an impact on local causes but can't do anything about international issues. What are they supposed to do about genocide in another country?

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#25

Post by baggy_trough » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #21

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

People misunderstand the concept of privilege. You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups. Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.

Certainly this is nonsense. A significant majority of undergraduate and graduate degrees go to women.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#26

Post by high_derivative » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #24

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

> I often see people on hn saying this is all blown out of proportion and a small vocal minority but when you talk to undergrads these days, you will realize these beliefs are not just a handful of people but carry weight across the student population. This may have to do with the student population because I teach undergrads at a community college and I have recently taught at a liberal arts college and find this re…

This is a fair point - the local cause is the one more accessible. Here is a counterpoint:

If you exalt a local event like the one in the original post (an arrest for a theft), or a speaker from the opposite political spectrum to terms like 'violence, hate speech, traumatizing' (words you will find in student newspapers and activism here), what is left for real events of actual drastic impact to society and the lives of others?

This kind of activism is a concept inflation that is tearing societies apart from both ends. An interesting article on this:

https://quillette.com/2019/02/14/the-boy-who-inflated-the-co...

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#27

Post by InTheArena » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:44 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #22

wl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll heartily endorse Legal Insurrection's coverage, but with the caveat that they've got a bone to pick against "social justice" and leftist campus activism. It doesn't seem to get in the way of them reporting all the relevant facts in a fair way.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare. i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")? or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle…

There is a form of the SJW movement that eschews “Liberalism” as basically being nothing more then the representation of the power of the oppressor rather then being a bedrock set of principles necessary for democracy and civil society. They have been vocal in demanding that those that would impress by any means (including speech) be suppressed and de-platformed or “canceled“. The systems that protect viewpoints that diverge or protect oppressors are must be removed. You see this not only with speech, but also things as basic as right to consul, right to face your accuser, right to a fair and speed trial - Under title 9 at college.

It’s basically the same authoritarianism that hard core Trump fans embrace, but on the left.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#28

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #22

wl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll heartily endorse Legal Insurrection's coverage, but with the caveat that they've got a bone to pick against "social justice" and leftist campus activism. It doesn't seem to get in the way of them reporting all the relevant facts in a fair way.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare. i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")? or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle…

>opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality,

That's like a pro-lifer wondering how anyone could be against "life," or a communist wondering why anybody would be against the proletariat, or a capitalist wondering why anybody would be against freedom. You have to go beyond the dictionary definition of the word, and beyond the most abstract and noble stated goals of the movement, to understand why anyone would be against anything.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#29

Post by high_derivative » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #21

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

People misunderstand the concept of privilege. You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups. Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.

Evidence needed, strongly. There is an incredible push happening at all levels of e.g. STEM, tech companies, everywhere, to get women. They receive special support, scholarships, extra application tracks, extra programs, preferred hiring, and boys are falling more and more behind.

Are you really trying to say that the Harvard-Stanford-Oxbridge woman is held back compared to, say, the plumber's son (no offence, a highly useful profession, but you will find few of their children at these unis)?

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#30

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #22

wl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll heartily endorse Legal Insurrection's coverage, but with the caveat that they've got a bone to pick against "social justice" and leftist campus activism. It doesn't seem to get in the way of them reporting all the relevant facts in a fair way.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare. i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")? or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle…

[deleted]