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Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

bbc.com

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Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#21

Post by nickik »

> childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply.

Childcare is expsneive period and it will still be if you force other people to pay it. I have never understood why people demand that society pays for their children. Having children is a 100% voluntary activity in todays day and age.

I don't demand that my hobbies get payed by society.

The taxes already massivly subsidies children by getting child money, paying for the whole school system and many other things as well.

I see zero reasons why one should just be able to have children and have child care and school payed for the first 20 years of your childs live.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#22

Post by nickik »

ugqtq wrote: post #17
DecayingOrganic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the research in question does not speak on the grounds such as to suggest women earn 20% less for the same job vis-a-vis men, but rather claims due to women are being under-represented in a variety of high-level jobs, on average, they earn less. And the reason may not be in the realm of misogynist inclinations depicted at high levels of government, it may be the case on average women choose professions that…

Do men and women have the same level of education and have they chosen the same career paths in average? If they haven't then that 20 % is meaningless. As far as I know men and women can choose to get the degrees that they want and can choose to pursue the careers that they want. If they haven't chosen to do so what do they expect? Ah I see you edited. Yes that was exactly my point. If they expect to get the same mon…

More woman at my school in switzerland had the education to go into IT and yet we had 3-4 woman in 3 classes. That has zero to do with access to education and everything with personal choice.

One can argue its a society problem, but its not an education problem. Woman are overrepresented and get more education in general.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#23

Post by nickik »

smackay wrote: post #19

Context is always important. Switzerland still has conscription in to the military and the culture that comes with it is very strong and male dominated - though it's importance has lessened somewhat. Switzerland is a modern country and many have the same liberal values we all know but there appears to be a sizeable proportion which regard women for their, shall we say, utilitarian value and little else. Given this ba…

The military is a joke in Switzerland. Its literally called green holyday. More and more guys, including myself are opting out. All you have to not go is put your hand up when the military guy askes who doesn't want to go.

I am Switzerland so I don't have the context maybe but calling swiss culture male dominated seems pretty strange to me. Can you explain what that even means?

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#24

Post by mlang23 »

nickik wrote: post #22
ugqtq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do men and women have the same level of education and have they chosen the same career paths in average? If they haven't then that 20 % is meaningless. As far as I know men and women can choose to get the degrees that they want and can choose to pursue the careers that they want. If they haven't chosen to do so what do they expect? Ah I see you edited. Yes that was exactly my point. If they expect to get the same mon…

More woman at my school in switzerland had the education to go into IT and yet we had 3-4 woman in 3 classes. That has zero to do with access to education and everything with personal choice. One can argue its a society problem, but its not an education problem. Woman are overrepresented and get more education in general.

I experienced pretty much the same thing during the time I went to school. I specialized in IT during school already. We had about 2/3 women and 1/3 man. AFAIK, none of the women actually started to work in IT. Two or three man did.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#25

Post by _nalply »

wizzairflyer wrote: post #20
kstenerud wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. There's opposition to it for a number of reasons: 1. Employers are people, and peoples first reactions to anything is almost universally selfish: "how does this negatively affect me? And why should I suffer financially for someone else's gain?" 2. Most policy makers are still men, and policy makers only decid…

During the maternity leave it is not the employer that is paying the salary of the mother (at least in Switzerland, and I assume it is the same in most if not all countries with a mandatory maternity leave), but the state. So the employer isn't paying someone to do nothing. He also has enough time to plan the replacement since the leave can be announce 6 months or so in advance.

Maternity leave is covered by deductions from salary for everybody. It's a part of the Income Compensation Insurance, the rate of IC is 0.225% of the salary. It is deducted from the agreed-upon salary and additionally the employer pays an additional 0.225%, so in the total 0.45% is deducted.

https://www.bsv.admin.ch/bsv/en/home/social-insurance/eo-msv...

https://www.ahv-iv.ch/en/Leaflets-forms/Leaflets/Contributio...

There are other mandatory insurance deductions. Let's say the employer and the employee agree upon a wage of CHF 7500 a month, then first the employer deducts premiums of 5.125% or CHF 384 and also adds CHF 384 on his own and sends the money to the compensation office where the employer is located.

From my own experience as an employer I know that the compensation offices are very strict and know how levy the monies even from small mom-and-pop shops with employees. They are also helpful, as an employer you can call them or visit them and do what is neccessary. It's an efficient and tightly organized system.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#26

Post by wizzairflyer »

smackay wrote: post #19

Context is always important. Switzerland still has conscription in to the military and the culture that comes with it is very strong and male dominated - though it's importance has lessened somewhat. Switzerland is a modern country and many have the same liberal values we all know but there appears to be a sizeable proportion which regard women for their, shall we say, utilitarian value and little else. Given this ba…

I live here and I really don't see a strong and male dominated culture, no more than when I was abroad in countries without conscription.

It's especially not the case in jobs requiring a degree, because degree holders are way more likely to have opted out and done either the civil service or pretended they were unfit and pay an extra tax instead.

However I guess it can slow things down from a different angle because currently the only gender currently legally oppressed is men, since the law guarantee the same rights to all but forces men into the conscription. This can breed some resentment, especially since progressives regularly fail to address it properly.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#28

Post by brutally-honest »

nickik wrote: post #21

> childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Childcare is expsneive period and it will still be if you force other people to pay it. I have never understood why people demand that society pays for their children. Having children is a 100% voluntary activity in todays day and age. I don't demand that my hobbies get payed by society. The taxes already massivly subsidies children by getting child money,…

Your hobbies are, in the grand scheme of things, unimportant.

Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important.

Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#29

Post by nickik »

brutally-honest wrote: post #28
nickik wrote: post #21

> childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Childcare is expsneive period and it will still be if you force other people to pay it. I have never understood why people demand that society pays for their children. Having children is a 100% voluntary activity in todays day and age. I don't demand that my hobbies get payed by society. The taxes already massivly subsidies children by getting child money,…

Your hobbies are, in the grand scheme of things, unimportant. Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important. Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity.

Tons of people make a choice to have children because the would like to have and raise children. I don't see how that is not the same as hobby. Its a totally voluntary activity that primarly benefits yourself and your own family and most people do it because they just want to.

> Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important.

That is already provided currently. That and much more.

> Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity.

Outside of nationalist 'we need to have a strong population' or basic evolutionary 'human survival' concerns I really don't see how it is a necessity for the actual people living in the country, specially all of those that don't have or want children.

People think this because this is how they have already thought about it but I really don't see how that makes sense for actual people living here.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#30

Post by BigJono »

kstenerud wrote: post #18
s9w wrote: post #9

> Swiss women's pensions are 37% lower than men's, primarily because women take time out from work to raise their children

And in a world where you can't both live off the man's income anymore, that's completely unfair. Forcing people to trade their future income and security to raise kids is terrible.

How do you fix it? Any way you look at it, the person spending 12 hours a day every day sharpening their skills is going to have a much higher income on average than the person that spends their time raising kids.
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