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How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

blog.wepay.com

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Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#21

Post by tptacek »

aberman wrote: post #18
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say, Rich, that was not the response I expected. AFAIC, there is no gray area here. I have argued (yes, many have disagreed with me) the same for years here. A little background... I have seen more deals than you can imagine ruined because someone lost trust. As simple as that. The salesman fibbing to his wife on the phone in front of the customer. The contractor paying the 3rd party vendor a little extra to…

If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.

No, that's really what Ed's like. He's also _really_ not OK with you smoking up to relax ("You have trouble reading and writing and 'rithmetic, so you need a little chemical help. You pussy."); I'm pretty sure he also once posted he'd never work with you if you pirated software. I've been surprised by many things he's said. I think he's coming from a principled place.

That doesn't mean I agree with him totally... but I don't think he's gunning for you.

If Ed's disappointed with you, someone else in the real world who could be vital to your business is going to be similarly disappointed. Why not figure out how to fix it? You're going to be successful either way, we all know it, but for the most part nobody in the real world is going to give enough of a shit about you to get past the first negative reaction they have to you. Might as well use Ed as a scientific curiosity.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#22

Post by aberman »

aberman wrote: post #18
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say, Rich, that was not the response I expected. AFAIC, there is no gray area here. I have argued (yes, many have disagreed with me) the same for years here. A little background... I have seen more deals than you can imagine ruined because someone lost trust. As simple as that. The salesman fibbing to his wife on the phone in front of the customer. The contractor paying the 3rd party vendor a little extra to…

If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.

"Do you respond to others who provide you feedback like this? I sure hope not."

I don't, no. But most people that are genuine in their feedback about a blog post on a very specific topic don't preface it (every time) with "how can a company that handles your money do such a thing!"

I actually think your feedback is poignant and helpful, but the way you frame it is disingenuous.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#23

Post by aberman »

cranbell127 wrote: post #20

No thanks. Lies are a bad business model and a worse life model. Makes one think wepay.com's sense of ethics all boil down to whether it makes them money or not.

um, the business model I recommend is building products that solve real problems and charging people a fair price to use it.

Testing ideas has nothing to do with determining a business model. Not sure how this relates to WePay's ethics or whether it makes us money or not. Bizarre.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#24

Post by aberman »

tptacek wrote: post #21
aberman wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.

No, that's really what Ed's like. He's also _really_ not OK with you smoking up to relax ("You have trouble reading and writing and 'rithmetic, so you need a little chemical help. You pussy."); I'm pretty sure he also once posted he'd never work with you if you pirated software. I've been surprised by many things he's said. I think he's coming from a principled place. That doesn't mean I agree with him totally... but…

upvoted and appreciated. thanks for the insight.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#25

Post by edw519 »

tptacek wrote: post #21
aberman wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.

No, that's really what Ed's like. He's also _really_ not OK with you smoking up to relax ("You have trouble reading and writing and 'rithmetic, so you need a little chemical help. You pussy."); I'm pretty sure he also once posted he'd never work with you if you pirated software. I've been surprised by many things he's said. I think he's coming from a principled place. That doesn't mean I agree with him totally... but…

Thanks for the memories, Thomas (I think).

I remember that drug post from a few years ago. If was about an English PhD who posted that he needed drugs to cope and I really ripped into him. I wasn't upset so much that he "smoked to relax" but that it ended up here, where it could have easily been misunderstood by someone impressionable (and young). I got shredded by my fellow hn'ers that day. Amazing that you remembered it.

You're right, I won't work with anyone whose ethics I suspect. Pretty simple, I think.

For the record, I'm certainly not a saint. Once you get to know me irl (hopefully that will come about some day), you'll see. It's just that I have never found any substitute for pristine business ethics, and I occasionally point that out here. The feedback, both kinds, is usually quick and predictable.

I'm not disappointed, just concerned, that's all.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#26

Post by edw519 »

aberman wrote: post #22
aberman wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.

"Do you respond to others who provide you feedback like this? I sure hope not." I don't, no. But most people that are genuine in their feedback about a blog post on a very specific topic don't preface it (every time) with "how can a company that handles your money do such a thing!" I actually think your feedback is poignant and helpful, but the way you frame it is disingenuous.

I actually think your feedback is poignant and helpful, but the way you frame it is disingenuous.

Fair enough.

Someday someone will invent a compiler for forum comments, so I can get an error/warning listing right away. Until then, I'll just keep trying to improve the process of putting my thoughts into words.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#27

Post by tptacek »

edw519 wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's really what Ed's like. He's also _really_ not OK with you smoking up to relax ("You have trouble reading and writing and 'rithmetic, so you need a little chemical help. You pussy."); I'm pretty sure he also once posted he'd never work with you if you pirated software. I've been surprised by many things he's said. I think he's coming from a principled place. That doesn't mean I agree with him totally... but…

Thanks for the memories, Thomas (I think). I remember that drug post from a few years ago. If was about an English PhD who posted that he needed drugs to cope and I really ripped into him. I wasn't upset so much that he "smoked to relax" but that it ended up here, where it could have easily been misunderstood by someone impressionable (and young). I got shredded by my fellow hn'ers that day. Amazing that you remember…

For what it's worth:

I winced at the "tell them we're oversubscribed" recommendation, but didn't think less of them for it.

I am in exactly the same point with a product right now and wish I could find better advice than "make stuff up and throw it out there to see if it sticks". Credibility is expensive. I can't burn it on cold emails. You may not think I'm a liar for pulling that stunt... but you're not going to jump on the next email I send out, and I can't have that.

But, I sell to F500's, and WePay sells to neighborhood soccer teams. It probably worked peachy for them.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#28

Post by prodigal_erik »

aberman wrote: post #23
cranbell127 wrote: post #20

No thanks. Lies are a bad business model and a worse life model. Makes one think wepay.com's sense of ethics all boil down to whether it makes them money or not.

um, the business model I recommend is building products that solve real problems and charging people a fair price to use it. Testing ideas has nothing to do with determining a business model. Not sure how this relates to WePay's ethics or whether it makes us money or not. Bizarre.

> Testing ideas has nothing to do with determining a business model

Your business model includes how you're going to cover the costs of market research. This answer boils down to "we're going to trick people into doing it involuntarily for no compensation, throwing chaff into the marketplace as a negative externality", whether or not they think of it that way. Dry testing is just a step short of fraud, and I for one won't deal with anyone who has ever been caught doing it.

Re: How to (In)validate Your Startup Idea

#30

Post by shubber »

kqueue wrote: post #4

This is exactly what mark zuckerberg did. [sarcasm] IMHO, you invalidate an idea after you implement it and see the user's reactions. Before then, you cannot know if it will succeed or not.

Which is great if you can implement the idea in a weekend. Much harder if it'll take 2 years to build before you can see if the time was worth spending.
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