I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer • Hacker News Board

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#21

Post by tetha » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

I've been considering and pondering similar things for my own career. I think there are two things going on.

First off, there are assumptions that full stack developers are 100% amazing at all points in the stack. That's not the case. I consider myself more of an operator this day an age, but I still could take AWS or an empty linux box and build and deploy a java/go backend with a VueJS frontend for something. It won't be pretty, I can promise that. At the same time, that's why I have a great time with the other full stack developer who is much stronger on the frontend/backend side and kinda doesn't want to deal with the infrastructure and deployment.

And from that follows something that has taken a lot of stress from me. If the company is small, it's fine to have a full stack developer deliver something. There will be deficiencies in the stack somewhere, but who cares, there will be a minimally viable product.

Once the company scales however, people can start specializing into the areas they are good at. Why should I struggle too much with a JS frontend if I can make the entire application faster by thinking about the database? Why should the mentioned other dev struggle with one of the many ways to deploy the application if they could spend their time on features?

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#22

Post by thatoneuser » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #11

> As years go by the industry is going deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of developer-focused engineering process and developers go on to combine more and more responsibilities beneath the surface of single cranium. Why do you think developer salaries are so high? As the advancement and sophistication of open-source and SaaS offerings increasingly empowers individual developers to do more for businesses, so do d…

Then by your own logic developers salaries are low. If you're replacing three people and not being paid three salaries then the company has just found a way to squeeze more blood for less.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#23

Post by mamon » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

tzhenghao wrote: post #7

Full stack engineers wear multiple hats and they have a strong incentive for picking just the right (sufficient?) tools for the job. The upside for full stack engineers are that things aren't overengineered.

I think from the client point of view the advantage of having "full-stack" developers is that it saves you some trouble of team management. With more specialized team you need some fronted developers, some backend developers and an architect to ensure that the pieces fit. And you have some inneficiencies, when front-end peoples are swamped with work, and backend guys are sitting idle, or vice versa. In a team composed solely of full-stack devs people are more interchangeable.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#24

Post by scarface74 » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

More and more agencies are looking for people who can do both frontend and backend, also participating in the business requirement development, writing unit and integration tests, being everywhere and doing everything

I like working with the users directly to make sure I’m writing what they need. If I don’t, I encounter too many instances of the “XY Problem”.

Who should be doing the integration and unit tests if not the developer? Why wouldn’t the developer be doing his own QA before he passes it off as “done”?

I work for mostly small companies so I can do the full stack - except for designing the interface. I can code the front end, backend in three or four modern languages well, know how to design and manage databases - RDMS (OLAP/OLTP) and I know my way around infrastructure at least with AWS. I can do passable Devops CI/CD pipelines. But, this is from a long career at working at mostly small companies.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#25

Post by spraak » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #6

We had this role back in 1997 We called those roles webmasters. It involved everything frontend / backend plus running a server on your bedroom floor that powered a company I'm fine with all of those roles. I've been able to pick them up along the way and others (report writer use to be a separate role). The one role I can't master is designer (not frontend developer). It isn't logical and it can't be learned through…

Have you spent any time trying to learn design? I agree there is some part that is one's own artistic style, but much of design can be viewed and learned systematically - ratios, patterns, color theory, etc

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#26

Post by chimpburger » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

dgzl wrote: post #19

20years wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem that I have seen is most companies don't want to pay a skilled full-stack developer what they are worth. They think $100k is the going rate and unfortunately a lot of junior developers are calling themselves full-stack and jumping at that salary. Then the lines get blurred and the true value of a full-stack developer gets diminished.

I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS deve…

Unbelievable. Three years of industry experience alone would qualify you beyond a junior position. https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#27

Post by astral303 » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #10

Try to make a company. You have to be full-full-fullstack.

If you like to ship business value for your employers, you will want to be full full stack.

If you want to be partially responsible for your work and put up “not my job” boundaries, then sure, proudly hail the part stack flag.

If you’re an architect or a lead engineer and you are not coding in the front end (and I don’t mean designing its visuals), then you are dodging solving hard engineering problems (let others do the toil), and you are on your road to losing useful perspective.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#28

Post by 0xDEFC0DE » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

chimpburger wrote: post #26

dgzl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS deve…

Unbelievable. Three years of industry experience alone would qualify you beyond a junior position. https://www.altexsoft.com/media/2018/09/unnamed-14.png

These are basically code for "reject them for silly reasons to get back to screening cheap candidates"

dgzl probably dodged so many bullets that they should be in the Matrix by now

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#29

Post by avip » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

dgzl wrote: post #19

20years wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem that I have seen is most companies don't want to pay a skilled full-stack developer what they are worth. They think $100k is the going rate and unfortunately a lot of junior developers are calling themselves full-stack and jumping at that salary. Then the lines get blurred and the true value of a full-stack developer gets diminished.

I recently was looking for new work. When trying to apply to Developer opportunities, I realized that recruiters largely didn't know what they were talking about. Many times I was told that my Computer Science degree, large school projects, personal projects such as random apps and maintaining an Arch Linux setup, awards such as winning 1st place in a Google Hackathon, several years of student work including iOS deve…

I recently had a recruiter questioning my application for a "senior developer" role as "You seem to have no background in software".

I told her I have "a background" of well over 10 years as a developer, and consider it my profession.

"So why did you study Biology"? she replied.

Re: I don't want to be a full-fullstack developer

#30

Post by ebiester » Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

So, it seems like the pendulum is swinging back. I remember companies with more dedicated specialists, and it could be challenging to ship small features due to large coordination efforts.

Further, sometimes the work is unbalanced. In my current company, we recently had a backend-dominant release in a way that the frontend team didn't have as much work. That team rolled up its sleeves and dug in to solve problems, even if they weren't specialized in it. They weren't happy. It wasn't what gave them joy, but it was what was necessary for everyone to release what was needed. Now, we made sure that they had access to backend developers who could pair or guide work, and we knew the work would talk longer. (After all, these were developers who were stronger in the front end!) With our next release, we look to be more balanced, but we're looking at having developers with more backend competencies contribute to the frontend this release.

I think it's too much to ask for developers to be equally brilliant in multiple areas, but I don't think it's too much to ask that people have the willingness to develop minimal proficiencies in multiple layers and the willingness to contribute and learn.