SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#21

Post by jedberg » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

CryoLogic wrote: post #7

Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions" - Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x" - CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" etc. etc.

> CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family"

Colleges are pretty wise to this trick. You aren't the first to think of it.

Relatedly is legally emancipating a child so they have "no parental support" and get a bunch of grants. That doesn't work either.

I suspect the colleges would get good as sussing out all those other tricks too.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#22

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #13

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #4

What does this do that knowing where the student went to school and how much their parents make (both things that colleges know) doesn't? It seems like yet another opaque metric to be gamed by the people with the resources to spend optimizing for those sort of things.

Yeah. I'm very much in favor of affirmative action and similar measures, but this really seems like the wrong place for it. This move feels almost as though it was intended to stir up unnecessary controversy.

>This move feels almost as though it was intended to stir up unnecessary controversy.

"Adversity score" is precariously close to "diversity score" which would certainly store up controversy.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#23

Post by jeffdavis » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #4

What does this do that knowing where the student went to school and how much their parents make (both things that colleges know) doesn't? It seems like yet another opaque metric to be gamed by the people with the resources to spend optimizing for those sort of things.

"Level the playing field" is an over-used and under-defined expression. Do you level the playing field before you start or in the middle of the game?

What is the purpose of college admissions -- to award a select few or to match students with colleges where they are most likely to succeed?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#24

Post by qntty » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #12

So I think that it is OK to be taking these factors into account at the college admissions level, but I am not sure if the "neutral test administration organization" is the correct place for this to be at. This is a very thorny issue, and I am uncomfortable with a centralized organization influencing it to such a large degree. Whether, and how much, to take into account these factors should be a local decision made b…

I would imagine that elite schools won't rely on this very heavily, but not every school has the resources to do a "holistic" admissions process, and not every student has the desire to go through such a process.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#25

Post by president » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

CryoLogic wrote: post #7

Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions" - Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x" - CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" etc. etc.

I can't wait to launch my Adversity Summer Camp startup

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#26

Post by iamtheworstdev » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

This is all that I could think of:

Privilege Points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#27

Post by jedberg » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #13

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #4

What does this do that knowing where the student went to school and how much their parents make (both things that colleges know) doesn't? It seems like yet another opaque metric to be gamed by the people with the resources to spend optimizing for those sort of things.

Yeah. I'm very much in favor of affirmative action and similar measures, but this really seems like the wrong place for it. This move feels almost as though it was intended to stir up unnecessary controversy.

> This move feels almost as though it was intended to stir up unnecessary controversy.

I mean probably not, otherwise they would let the students see the scores.

I think it was put there to help the elite colleges defeat the lawsuits against them by being able to say, "see, we used an objective measure of hardship from a third party!".

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#28

Post by tlb » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

abakker wrote: post #16

This seems fine if you wanted to use the SAT to measure an outcome for a given level of inputs . If all you actually care about is the actual outcome though, then this doesn't actually help. I guess there could be both use cases for test scores, given that higher education might actually find itself more concerned with showing improvement as an important metric. They might prefer students that show more aptitude for…

Past adversity is in the past. So if someone grew up in a poor environment but you're thinking of admitting them to a good college on full scholarship, they'll soon be progressing at the rate they're capable of without the adversity.

So the best predictor of future success in a good environment probably does include a correction for past adversity.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#29

Post by ben_jones » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #21

CryoLogic wrote: post #7

Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions" - Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x" - CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" etc. etc.

> CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" Colleges are pretty wise to this trick. You aren't the first to think of it. Relatedly is legally emancipating a child so they have "no parental support" and get a bunch of grants. That doesn't work either. I suspect the colleges would get good as sussing out all those other tricks too.

Just like they were able to suss out all the student athletes who didn't actually do anything?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#30

Post by qntty » Thu, May 16, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

CryoLogic wrote: post #7

Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions" - Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x" - CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" etc. etc.

This is already happening. The difference is that it's only happening at elite schools that take a "holistic" approach to admissions already. Now, less elite schools will join in the fun.