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Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

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Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#21

Post by ixtli »

kaesar14 wrote: post #17
aserafini wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

What’s wrong with evaluating whether you’d get along with someone as a coworker? In my experience, being friendly and getting along has aided cooperation far more than hiring the most qualified candidate at the detriment of group dynamic. Yes, there are potential biases, but at a smaller company I’d say that’s a huge factor.

I edited my top level comment for just this reason. Interpersonal communication skills are extremely important to evaluate for any position. But the person you're replying to is saying, correctly, that this isn't what people mean in practice when they bandy about the term "culture fit."

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#22

Post by ixtli »

aantix wrote: post #19
aserafini wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

Or it’s such a vague term that means something different to each team and might have significance depending upon what is valued?

Yes but my point is that in my 8+ years in the startup world it has a very specific connotation that is, as someone else said, a vehicle to legitimize really inappropriate biases into hiring.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#23

Post by lsalvatore »

Senior Developers are often running the interviews. If the Senior decides you need to know a certain set of questions for the job, and you fail those questions, then they feel you aren't ready for the job. That's not to say these questions aren't often ridiculous, but we're also forgetting that many Seniors (such as myself) don't ask these questions, asking simpler, more practical questions, and probing for industry knowledge. It's my own finding that around 50% or more of candidates can't write a single line of code at all. So asking a question like "reduce this array" is sufficient enough to judge that person's ability for the job that I need most of the time.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#24

Post by mywittyname »

dtagames wrote: post #3

This is seriously f'd up. When I was hired by IBM years ago, they also had a test called the IPAT (Initial Programming Aptitude Test) but, guess what?, there was no programming in it! Instead, the test was designed to see if one had the basic reasoning and logic skills which would be necessary to solve a wide variety of programming-related problems -- not one stupid, specific problem in a particular language. That's…

So basically, an IQ test.

I believe these run into legal grey areas because they have to be obviously relevant to the job in question, which likely leads to the tests getting progressively more domain-specific as time goes on.

Programming does seem to be a field in which general intelligence is a big predictor of success. Whereas a field like management probably personality and general intelligence are more equally weighted.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#25

Post by ixtli »

skybrian wrote: post #18
ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

Saying they "can't tell you anything" is one-bit thinking. Yes, there is a lot that interviews don't tell you, but they are still a useful signal.

Yeah that's fair. Im just frustrated with how low-bandwidth those things are. I definitely get a bit of a sense of how a person thinks by watching them do those CS 201-style problems, which isn't nothing.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#27

Post by umvi »

aserafini wrote: post #13
ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

So if I make a startup, I should be forced to hire some brilliant programmer whose personality I clash with over over a slightly less brilliant programmer who I can tell will become a fast friend just because the former has demonstrated more technological prowess?

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#28

Post by chrisseaton »

ixtli wrote: post #14
dtagames wrote: post #3

This is seriously f'd up. When I was hired by IBM years ago, they also had a test called the IPAT (Initial Programming Aptitude Test) but, guess what?, there was no programming in it! Instead, the test was designed to see if one had the basic reasoning and logic skills which would be necessary to solve a wide variety of programming-related problems -- not one stupid, specific problem in a particular language. That's…

An extremely underrated point: Hire. Generalists.

Sometimes you really do need particular skills and experience that take decades to learn. Otherwise you don't even know what you don't know and you don't know what mistakes are usually made in a given area.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#29

Post by edoceo »

ixtli wrote: post #14
dtagames wrote: post #3

This is seriously f'd up. When I was hired by IBM years ago, they also had a test called the IPAT (Initial Programming Aptitude Test) but, guess what?, there was no programming in it! Instead, the test was designed to see if one had the basic reasoning and logic skills which would be necessary to solve a wide variety of programming-related problems -- not one stupid, specific problem in a particular language. That's…

An extremely underrated point: Hire. Generalists.

Am generalist, I hire generalists. My favourite feature is that they/we don't know what we're not supposed to do. So we just go, damn the torpedoes. Smart generalists GSD

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#30

Post by cyclonetiger »

dtagames wrote: post #3

This is seriously f'd up. When I was hired by IBM years ago, they also had a test called the IPAT (Initial Programming Aptitude Test) but, guess what?, there was no programming in it! Instead, the test was designed to see if one had the basic reasoning and logic skills which would be necessary to solve a wide variety of programming-related problems -- not one stupid, specific problem in a particular language. That's…

From what I know, the IPAT still exists. Had to take it in 2015 for a co-op with IBM.
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