Java is confusing, Clojure is simple • Hacker News Board

Re: Java is confusing, Clojure is simple

#21

Post by iLemming » Fri, May 10, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

DrMagnus wrote: post #18

iLemming wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java as a language might be not so difficult to learn and understand, but using it for writing real applications can become convoluted pretty quick. Siding with Java in arguments against it, today is like arguing against printing press in the 15th century - "This devilish machine takes the soul out of divine process of copying a book by re-writing it by hand." non-Java JVM languages popping up every few years for goo…

I can see where you're coming from, but for the area that I work in (finance) I can't help but feel the features of the JVM are a net gain rather than a loss. I'll absolutely agree that it's not good for applications that don't need it's complex machinery. Half my side projects are written in java, and probably could be easier in python. I'm not sure your metaphor really works here, as you're implying that Java is in…

I do work for a Fintech startup as well. We use Clojure and Clojurescript - it simply makes sense for us. It is extremely pragmatic choice that allows us to move fast safely. Seeing and experiencing all three sides - in all honestly I have to admit: yes, Java and Javascript are inherently less efficient languages for writing software than Clojure/Clojurescript. Java and Javascript are good, sorta "low-level" languages if you required to stay close to the platform they are made for, but in most cases (I'm just gonna throw some arbitrary number like 90%) it is not what's needed. They kind of have become "assembly" of JVM and Web.

Re: Java is confusing, Clojure is simple

#22

Post by iLemming » Fri, May 10, 2019, 8:24 PM UTC

DrMagnus wrote: post #19

ErotemeObelus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason others prefer immutable constructs is due to a permanent and stable cognitive blockage. [About half of programmers are incapable of understanding mutable state]( https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f... ). Functional programming solves this problem by removing mutable state (almost) entirely. Functional programming is like speed controls for trucks. It enables people who have cogniti…

Functional programming is a concept, not a magic cure-all for bad programmers. Java also supports functional elements (though I'm not implying it's a functional language in the slightest). I could have an optimistic view of programmers, but I feel like that article is heavily slanted towards CS education, which is taught by people who intrinsically understand computer science. I work with people who are definitely no…

There's a lot more than just functional programming here. Use Clojure for a couple of years, and I guarantee: it spoils you, and you would never want to go back to your previous workflow - it would feel clunky and inefficient. Nothing is perfect, I know. I know that not from watching videos or reading blog posts - I have used many different languages "in anger." I like Clojure because it makes sense to me today. I'm sure someday it stops making sense or I'd have to use a different tool (better suited for some task). I keep looking around, and I still can't find a language that gives me the joy of delivering software without feeling miserable. Even with the most praised and loved languages - it sometimes feels like your machine is interrogating you and you are typing incantations to placate your computer's demands. With Clojure - you simply build things. You can focus on what's truly important for you to get the job done. It's not just a sense of familiarity. Clojure is far from being my first or second or even fifth PL. However, none of the languages I have previously used gave me that feeling of joy, curiosity, and confidence. It is not magic, no. Still, it is a well-designed programming language.

Re: Java is confusing, Clojure is simple

#23

Post by throwawayjava » Sat, May 11, 2019, 12:41 AM UTC

rand84545 wrote: post #5

throwawayjava wrote: post #2

The article focused on confusion among students learning the language. First, imperative programming is important to learn. Understanding the stack/heap and calling conventions is important. Yes, those things are hard to learn. But once you learn them, they are not that confusing. These are significant pedagogical concerns, but I'm not sure they are so important beyond the classroom. Second, FP is also confusing to n…

I agree that imperative programming is important to learn but java is in my opinion shouldn't be the language to do so. I think learning should be fun and java is the exact opposite of fun. It's wordy, full of boilerplate and enterprise code. Java, in contrast to other major languages, doesn't have an inspiring narative or a reason to be.

For imperative programming, I think it makes sense to teach C and then also at least one object-oriented garbage collected language. Doesn't have to be Java.

I also think teaching some course in Java is somewhat reasonable, if only because Java is so pervasive and so important in the history of programming that it's good for properly trained software engineers to have seen it.

Re: Java is confusing, Clojure is simple

#24

Post by Quekid5 » Sat, May 11, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

zxczxc111 wrote: post #7

The author forgot to mention that you can have immutable collections in Java but then praises Clojure's immutable collections. The Java coded provided will produce warnings due to the mixing of generics and raw types and actually I had no idea about what the output of the Clojure code would be because the author assumes that you have no questions "once a Clojure learner gets used to Clojure syntax". Once you learn th…

Yeah, seems like:

a) category error: The simplicity in the example is due to immutability, not language choice.

b) familiarity bias: I've learned X therefore it's simpler than Y. (It might be true, but you'd need a lot more supporting evidence than relying on point a.)

... anyway.

Re: Java is confusing, Clojure is simple

#25

Post by DrMagnus » Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

iLemming wrote: post #21

DrMagnus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see where you're coming from, but for the area that I work in (finance) I can't help but feel the features of the JVM are a net gain rather than a loss. I'll absolutely agree that it's not good for applications that don't need it's complex machinery. Half my side projects are written in java, and probably could be easier in python. I'm not sure your metaphor really works here, as you're implying that Java is in…

I do work for a Fintech startup as well. We use Clojure and Clojurescript - it simply makes sense for us. It is extremely pragmatic choice that allows us to move fast safely. Seeing and experiencing all three sides - in all honestly I have to admit: yes, Java and Javascript are inherently less efficient languages for writing software than Clojure/Clojurescript. Java and Javascript are good, sorta "low-level" language…

I don't work for a Fintech startup, I work in finance.

There's a huge difference between startup culture and corporate culture.