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Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#21

Post by threatofrain »

mfoy_ wrote: post #3

I've long thought that tech needs like.. a guild or trade union, or a professional association of some kind. The problem though, is that it's so easy to get into, so there's no easy way to "police" ourselves, because tech has been democratized so well-- Anyone can do a code boot-camp and be up and running within weeks. Not that that's a bad thing, it just makes it harder to hold developers to a code of ethics or anyt…

Why does the fact that people can join easily mean there's less interest in a union? Should Amazon factory workers not form a union if they find it's easy to join the ranks?

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#22

Post by [deleted] »

mfoy_ wrote: post #20
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) for a long, long time. Maybe the software thing is a spin-off of that.

In Ontario, at least, "engineer" is a protected designation. http://www.peo.on.ca/

[deleted]

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#23

Post by dageshi »

0815test wrote: post #7
carom wrote: post #6

I am honestly surprised that Dragon Fly is the last straw for people at Google. The company is the embodiment of surveillance capitalism. Why is there no talk about changing that model? It just seems the activists there are piling on the "China Scary" bandwagon (see: Huawei and ZTE losing hella business due to US pressure) rather than changing the revenue source in order to improve privacy and reduce data collection.

Do people actually care about privacy or data collection these days, though? It's not clear that most do - see the amount of people who freely interact on Facebook, even though they surely must be aware that everything on that site will ultimately be something that Facebook knows about. Google just doesn't seem very different by that standard.

No, the only place I see the kind of rabid hatred of Google and Facebook for their data collection practices are here on HN. Of course these people want their services, actually expect them for free, continuously at the same standard. They just don't want to be tracked, don't want to pay for them, don't want to be advertised too and don't have any real solutions on how they would be paid for other than some handwaving about breaking Google/Facebook up which apparently will solve everything.

Everytime I've pointed out that most people simply don't care about the level of tracking Facebook and Google do I'm endlessly shouted down with words to the effect of "No! If they understand how much they were tracked they'd care!", but I don't believe that's the case, I think most people simply don't care based on the value they get from these companies.

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#24

Post by walshemj »

msla wrote: post #12
mfoy_ wrote: post #3

I've long thought that tech needs like.. a guild or trade union, or a professional association of some kind. The problem though, is that it's so easy to get into, so there's no easy way to "police" ourselves, because tech has been democratized so well-- Anyone can do a code boot-camp and be up and running within weeks. Not that that's a bad thing, it just makes it harder to hold developers to a code of ethics or anyt…

> The problem though, is that it's so easy to get into, so there's no easy way to "police" ourselves, because tech has been democratized so well-- Anyone can do a code boot-camp and be up and running within weeks. Not that that's a bad thing, it just makes it harder to hold developers to a code of ethics or anything like that... Moreover, "coding" is a cross-cutting concern in that a lot of people who aren't formally…

Why large Unions represent a diverse set of members take Prospect (UK) which represents people in a very diverse set of industry's.

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#25

Post by sokoloff »

hnruss wrote: post #19

While I agree that individuals should consider the ethics of the projects that they work on, I think it's unfair to place the entire burden on them. Those in management who make the product requirements in order to sell the software are in the best position to evaluate the ethics of how software will be used. Why haven't I read a story about management conscientiously objecting to something?

I’m in management (at a company that doesn’t make anything where conscientious objection could be relevant). When we make other ethics-based judgment calls, we don’t go crowing about them generally. They’re simply “how things are done around here.”

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#26

Post by g-harel »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #14
armagon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Canadian coder ... and my first thought, reading your comment, was, "We do?"

I think Canada has had a professional, and pretty serious, association of engineers (in the traditional sense) for a long, long time. Maybe the software thing is a spin-off of that.

It's definitely not a spin off, "Software Engineers" are a part of the order, but not "Computer Scientists".

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#27

Post by ABCLAW »

I think the imposition of this burden on engineers is the result of our belief that our legislators are too incompetent or unwilling to act in the fact of clear moral hazards.

Tech has a very strong history of conscientious objectors. They're not the problem. Other institutions need to do their part.

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#28

Post by Retra »

kevintb wrote: post #18

Disheartening to see so many apathetic or downright hostile responses on here. I applaud this article for taking a stand.

There's no point in taking a stand if it means relinquishing responsibility.

You'd rather have weapons in the hands of pacifists than warmongers, but that won't happen if pacifists "conscientiously object" and throw down their arms; police brutality isn't eliminated by making it a job that appeals only to bullies; and software development doesn't become ethical by asking everyone with a sense of ethics to quit.

What you need is for people to communicate and understand the world well enough that they can find solutions that are as ethical as they are effective.

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#29

Post by BethGagaShaggy »

threatofrain wrote: post #21
mfoy_ wrote: post #3

I've long thought that tech needs like.. a guild or trade union, or a professional association of some kind. The problem though, is that it's so easy to get into, so there's no easy way to "police" ourselves, because tech has been democratized so well-- Anyone can do a code boot-camp and be up and running within weeks. Not that that's a bad thing, it just makes it harder to hold developers to a code of ethics or anyt…

Why does the fact that people can join easily mean there's less interest in a union? Should Amazon factory workers not form a union if they find it's easy to join the ranks?

>Should Amazon factory workers not form a union if they find it's easy to join the ranks?

Please mind the is–ought gap. Parent was talking about difficulties in unionizing, not about whether or not people in this or that sector should unionize.

Re: Tech Needs More Conscientious Objectors

#30

Post by throw2016 »

Discussions about ethical, privacy, surveillance issues often get hand waved and diluted here. See yesterday's thread on Google's retaliation as an example.

We need a diversity of communities that can represent the the software industry in more dimensions than the VC funded side of things, growth hacking and the singular focus on success that are often in heavy conflict with any kind of value dimension and ultimately greed and opportunism crowds out every other concern.

There is also often a extremely selfish mercenary view of the world this is disturbing and can jade most of us and needs some maturity to handle without letting it poison ones worldview.

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