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Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

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Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#21

Post by robertAngst »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

Isn't it interesting how we opinions on the lives and decisions halfway across the world- Despite not living there and understanding the complexity of life.

I'm an Environmentalist, but whenever I hear about government imposed solutions, I imagine someone's life is terrible.

-Elderly folks have a significantly harder time getting necessities

-Emergency vehicles take longer due to traffic

I won't go on, because I won't pretend I understand life and culture in another country.

This reminds me of the question a Lawyer said they debated- Does the world need a Tyrant to stop Capitalism from destroying the earth, or is Freedom the way?

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#22

Post by stfp »

kzcqt wrote: post #12
dingallero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any city in EU has now some forms of traffic restriction policies. The same is true for where I live as well. The issue is not really the restriction, but the lack of alternatives. Very few cities have a decent metro zone: these cities are the only ones where I see no objections to stricter traffic policies. Most cities are only served by public _road_ transport services. This doesn't have the same level…

Yeah, thanks for this comment. That's what makes this matter worse: they restrict private transport, but public transport just gets worse and more expensive every year.

I wonder what happens in places where private transport isn't restricted.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#23

Post by dingallero »

kzcqt wrote: post #16
dingallero wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In several places where I lived the public transport road service was subcontracted to the lowest-bidding private company of the region. This in turn creates this shitty illusion of "public" service that nobody wants to use, because: - it's unreliable (delays and strikes are common) - short working hours - poorly planned (or no) interconnections with other public services - abusive service costs to recoup the costs E…

>In several places where I lived the public transport road service was subcontracted to the lowest-bidding private company of the region. They are required to do so by law.

And this is a problem. Lowest-bidder-wins always creates a race to the bottom.

At least in the province of Venice, there was a complicated set of rules to pick between bidders of public contractors - so the law is certainly not universal in this regard.

If I recall correctly, it was based on percentiles instead of taking just the lowest bidder in an attempt to avoid companies racing to the bottom.

This in turn created a system where winning ad these bids was mostly by chance, and unsurprisingly was found to be rigged several times. But I digress...

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#24

Post by wincent »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #18

There are more choices than the extremes. But if those are the only choices offered, the citizenry may simply prefer more pollution over reductions in productivity or convenience. That's not an irrational choice, unless your prerogative is that there's no value in personal transportation, which is extreme. I see that a lot, and it's a first cousin of the "if it just saved one life" argument, which erroneously assumes…

The plan as implemented in Madrid isn't very extreme though. There is a long list of exceptions for getting into the restricted zone, including going into a public parking lot.

https://www.madrid.es/portales/munimadrid/es/Inicio/Movilida...

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#25

Post by amelius »

kzcqt wrote: post #4
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Would you say the same about regulations against smoking?

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#26

Post by chewz »

kzcqt wrote: post #4
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

You can't have democracy and consumer capitalism and at the same time save the planet from climate catastrophe. It simply won't work. This is what Naomi Klein is trying to tell us.[1]

At more practical level getting financing for better public transport needs providing forecast of revenues. And it does not justify investments in public transport as long as people use cars, ubers, taxis etc. And people will continue choosing personal convenience over the prospect of having grandchildren living on planet Earth.

Tough choice for elected politicians.

[1] http://www.naomiklein.org/articles/2018/08/capitalism-killed...

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#27

Post by impostir »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #18

There are more choices than the extremes. But if those are the only choices offered, the citizenry may simply prefer more pollution over reductions in productivity or convenience. That's not an irrational choice, unless your prerogative is that there's no value in personal transportation, which is extreme. I see that a lot, and it's a first cousin of the "if it just saved one life" argument, which erroneously assumes…

They didn't block all personal transport, only most no-local vehicles. I would be a lot more convinced by the pro car arguments if they debated the actual issues. No one is saying destroy all cars and roads, the argument is on the importance of the car in the general transit system.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#28

Post by kzcqt »

amelius wrote: post #25
kzcqt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Would you say the same about regulations against smoking?

Definitely I would. As a restaurant owner I should be able to dictate who can and who can't smoke in my premises. Having said that, cigarettes should be much more expensive so we can fund healthcare.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#29

Post by jaden »

kzcqt wrote: post #12
dingallero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any city in EU has now some forms of traffic restriction policies. The same is true for where I live as well. The issue is not really the restriction, but the lack of alternatives. Very few cities have a decent metro zone: these cities are the only ones where I see no objections to stricter traffic policies. Most cities are only served by public _road_ transport services. This doesn't have the same level…

Yeah, thanks for this comment. That's what makes this matter worse: they restrict private transport, but public transport just gets worse and more expensive every year.

At least for the Madrid metro, they have what I consider to be one of the most accessible and convenient public transportation systems I've used. And compared to Indianapolis, where I currently live, Madrid's public transport makes what we have here an embarrassment.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#30

Post by thepangolino »

jaden wrote: post #29
kzcqt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, thanks for this comment. That's what makes this matter worse: they restrict private transport, but public transport just gets worse and more expensive every year.

At least for the Madrid metro, they have what I consider to be one of the most accessible and convenient public transportation systems I've used. And compared to Indianapolis, where I currently live, Madrid's public transport makes what we have here an embarrassment.

Pretty much any European public transport is miles ahead of what most us cities have to offer.
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