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VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

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21–30 of 281 posts

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#21
post #5

Seems to ignore two things... a) Your ISP is almost always in the same legal jurisdiction as you are. A VPN need not be. b) A VPN has some incentive to deliver on privacy. Your ISP does not. It's fair to call out that a VPN isn't perfect for either privacy or anonymity. But it clearly can be better than your ISP.

> b) A VPN has some incentive to deliver on privacy. Your ISP does not.

Regarding this point, I think a good strategy here is to acknowledge that ISPs, like most organizations, don’t want to add to their workloads. Of course they aren’t privacy centric, but appeals to them oriented around _not_ having to store a bunch of logs or set up a bunch of processes can help to unite more people around initiatives to make things better for everyone

If everyone has the same ideals then it’s easy to team up. But even if everyone has different ideals, you might all still be wanting 90% of the same result and can still team up!

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#22
While there is plenty of nuance that VPN advertisements gloss over, this article is also simply verbose FUD. It shamelessly does the same exact thing that VPN ads do - attempt to replace one uninformed default option with another.

> The reality here is that your IP address is only a tiny piece of your trackable profile

Yes, a tiny piece you can never shake off besides with a tunnel ("VPN"). On this front, OP is effectively making the argument that surveillance by IP address is simply never done, even if all the other tracking signals are removed. This is doubtful.

> the location of a piece of large network equipment of your ISP, and not your location

Yeah which is still pretty damn indicative of my location, despite the "streams coming together" narrative. One less signal available to the surveillance advertisers is a good thing. One more feeling of "otherness" to an ad you're being forced to see is a great thing.

> The only secured [encrypted] channel here is the route between your machine and the VPN server

Yes, simply hiding your traffic from your ISP is itself a huge win. They don't spend millions on DPI gear without clear ROI.

Given that a vibrant market for VPNs provides for copious tunnel endpoints, and that common people imperfectly using VPNs still frustrates bad actors like banks and geofencers, I'll forgive the messaging. They're certainly more legitimate than pharmaceutical or political ads.

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#23
post #19
post #3

> Just like you have to trust your ISP that they do not collect data, you have to trust that your VPN provider is not storing the same data. Bull. Shit. Find me a major ISP that publicly claims they don't log any data. Anyone making a claim remotely similar to those made in https://torrentfreak.com/which-vpn-services-keep-you-anonymo... If it was the norm for ISPs to claim this, maybe this argument would work. For no…

I... find it really unlikely that any no-log VPN companies exist for any significant period of time without logging. I don't just mean law enforcement, though that's probably a problem too, (though I have less experience with that one) I'm also talking about the normal abuse an ISP gets. Spammers, etc... From experience, your upstream will shut you down if your customers aren't well behaved.

They all have anti-abuse mechanisms, but that doesn't mean logging.

Why couldn't you have a flagging system in real-time that shuts down accounts but doesn't save the data to disk?

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#24
post #21
post #5

Seems to ignore two things... a) Your ISP is almost always in the same legal jurisdiction as you are. A VPN need not be. b) A VPN has some incentive to deliver on privacy. Your ISP does not. It's fair to call out that a VPN isn't perfect for either privacy or anonymity. But it clearly can be better than your ISP.

> b) A VPN has some incentive to deliver on privacy. Your ISP does not. Regarding this point, I think a good strategy here is to acknowledge that ISPs, like most organizations, don’t want to add to their workloads. Of course they aren’t privacy centric, but appeals to them oriented around _not_ having to store a bunch of logs or set up a bunch of processes can help to unite more people around initiatives to make thin…

Logs are worth a lot of money to advertisers if your customers can't effectively avoid the process.

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#25
post #4
post #3

> Just like you have to trust your ISP that they do not collect data, you have to trust that your VPN provider is not storing the same data. Bull. Shit. Find me a major ISP that publicly claims they don't log any data. Anyone making a claim remotely similar to those made in https://torrentfreak.com/which-vpn-services-keep-you-anonymo... If it was the norm for ISPs to claim this, maybe this argument would work. For no…

We also have multiple documented cases of "no-log VPNs" submitting their logs to law enforcement. I even linked to one case in my post. What's your point here, exactly? Because my point was you have to trust either party. Oh, and btw, here in Europe, it is actually illegal for ISPs to give connection data away for non-law-enforcement purposes. It's sad that there are some US-American ISPs that have a record of sellin…

> We also have multiple documented cases of "no-log VPNs" submitting their logs to law enforcement.

That's true. And so some of us go out of our way to name names. For example:

EarthVPN - user compromised by datacenter logs

HMA - retained logs, and provided them under UK court order

Proxy.sh - outed someone voluntarily, because they didn't like something he did

PureVPN - retained logs, and shared them with investigators

> Because my point was you have to trust either party.

That's true. Except when it isn't. If you use nested VPN chains, you don't need to trust any of the individual VPNs. It's not as anonymous as Tor, because it's static, and far less complicated to compromise. But it's at least 10x faster. And you can hit Tor through them, which protects you from evil entry guards.

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#26
post #12

Just a thought—Couldn’t there be a service In front of ~5-1,000 different vpn services that would locally (depending on your subscription level) send each request to a random list of vpn providers (like a random dns provider? Somewhat complicating/obscuring the issue that arises with centralizing your traffic to single endpoint?

It's called Tor. And you don't even need a subscription for that.

I thought with tor you still connect to a single gateway and all traffic is sent to that remote endpoint? Or is it done locally?

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#27
post #20
post #5

Seems to ignore two things... a) Your ISP is almost always in the same legal jurisdiction as you are. A VPN need not be. b) A VPN has some incentive to deliver on privacy. Your ISP does not. It's fair to call out that a VPN isn't perfect for either privacy or anonymity. But it clearly can be better than your ISP.

So what protection does a foreign VPN provider have from the NSA? The answer: None.

If your threat model includes NSA you need to reconsider lot more than just a VPN

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#28

I have a pretty limited selection of ISPs available to me in my area and they make no effort to promise any kind of anonymity or privacy. Indeed here in Canada ISPs have frequently given subscriber contact information to copyright holders to issue warnings based on bittorrent usage without being legally required to. When visiting the UK certain IPs are blocked by ISPs. I can choose from a wide variety of VPN provider…

> Indeed here in Canada ISPs have frequently given subscriber contact information to copyright holders to issue warnings based on bittorrent usage without being legally required to.

Citation needed?

The “Notice and Notice” regime legally requires the ISP to pass along a notice from a copyright holder that believes your IP infringed their copyright by uploading their material. It does not permit the ISP to give subscriber information to the copyright holder directly unless ordered to do so by a court.

Here’s Michael Geist, Canadian lawyer, explaining the system and recent developments regarding ISPs seeking to make such information disclosures more difficult for copyright holders, not less

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2018/09/notice-the-difference-sup...

> My Globe and Mail op-ed notes that the Canadian system for online infringement was formally established in 2012 and came into effect in 2015. The so-called “notice-and-notice” approach grants rights holders the ability to send notifications of alleged infringement to Internet providers, who are required by law to forward the notices to the relevant subscriber and to preserve the data in the event of future legal action. The system does not prevent rights holders from pursuing additional legal remedies, but Internet providers cannot reveal the identity of their subscribers without a court order.

> While the system has proven helpful in educating users on the boundaries of copyright, some rights holders have used it as a launching pad for further lawsuits. In fact, thousands of lawsuits have now been filed, with rights holders seeking to piggyback on the notice-and-notice system by obtaining the necessary subscriber information directly from Internet providers at no further cost.

> The question of costs lies at the heart of an important Supreme Court of Canada copyright ruling released on Friday. Voltage Pictures sought subscriber information from Rogers Communications for the purposes of pursuing individual lawsuits. When Rogers advised that it wanted compensation of $100 per hour for the costs associated with fulfilling the request, Voltage responded that Internet providers could not pass along their costs since the notice-and-notice system already required them to identify subscribers and preserve the data without compensation.

> The particular incident may have involved only a few hundred dollars, but the broader principle had the potential to dramatically alter the Canadian approach. If Internet providers were required to disclose subscriber information without passing along the costs, Canadian courts faced the prospect of an avalanche of lawsuits and Internet providers might be dissuaded from carefully ensuring that the privacy of their subscribers was properly protected.

> The Supreme Court understood the broader implications of the case, ruling that Internet providers can pass along the specific costs associated with subscriber disclosures beyond those required for the notice-and-notice system. Indeed, the court recognized the importance of accurate data to safeguard against reputational harm and wrongful lawsuits.

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#29

I have a pretty limited selection of ISPs available to me in my area and they make no effort to promise any kind of anonymity or privacy. Indeed here in Canada ISPs have frequently given subscriber contact information to copyright holders to issue warnings based on bittorrent usage without being legally required to. When visiting the UK certain IPs are blocked by ISPs. I can choose from a wide variety of VPN provider…

> Indeed here in Canada ISPs have frequently given subscriber contact information to copyright holders to issue warnings based on bittorrent usage without being legally required to. Citation needed? The “Notice and Notice” regime legally requires the ISP to pass along a notice from a copyright holder that believes your IP infringed their copyright by uploading their material. It does not permit the ISP to give subscr…

> It does not permit the ISP to give subscriber information to the copyright holder directly unless ordered to do so by a court.

With honest VPNs, court orders won't yield anything.

Re: VPN – Very Precarious Narrative

#30
I use VPNs for one main reason: so that my ISP does not build a complete profile of me based on the sites I'm visiting. This can be mitigated to a certain extent by using a VPN. I do not expect to become anonymous or invisible on the internet all of a sudden, I just do not want the guy listening next to my front door to know everything about me.

In the US, where personal data is a free-for-all and everybody and their dog sells data about me to everyone else, this is important.

I agree with the author that VPNs should not be advertised as a complete security and privacy solution, but I disagree with his statement that they can actually do more harm than good.

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