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The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

theintercept.com

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Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#21

Post by dictum »

whatshisface wrote: post #7
nickelcitymario wrote: post #5

Nothing in this article is surprising. I mean, honestly, if you don't think the CIA is actively trying to gain access to your devices, WTF do you think they do all day? I'd be more concerned if the intelligence agencies of the world WEREN'T doing this. It's their purpose. It's what we pay them for with our taxes. Of course we should also always root for tech companies to stay one step ahead. But infosec is an arms ra…

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country.

If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country.

The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic choice.

Edit: a pragmatic reasoning could be compartmentalization — keeping citizens under the watch of a separate entity (e.g. FBI) but it doesn't explain why domestic mass surveillance should be ruled out.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#22

Post by wefarrell »

dictum wrote: post #21
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country. If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country. The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic cho…

Domestic threats are outside of the CIA's scope.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#23

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #5

Nothing in this article is surprising. I mean, honestly, if you don't think the CIA is actively trying to gain access to your devices, WTF do you think they do all day? I'd be more concerned if the intelligence agencies of the world WEREN'T doing this. It's their purpose. It's what we pay them for with our taxes. Of course we should also always root for tech companies to stay one step ahead. But infosec is an arms ra…

Well yes, and I also hope we don't know what they do all day.

Another point worth making is that the government can't really be on your team, as they tend to hog the ball/puck.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#24

Post by JustSomeNobody »

dictum wrote: post #21
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country. If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country. The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic cho…

The constitution and amendments to it give us certain rights. It really doesn't matter if citizens are a much larger risk or not.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#25

Post by JustSomeNobody »

penagwin wrote: post #10
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

Somethings like spying on American phone calls (or just their "metadata") I agree with. But somethings like breaking encryption, exploiting iPhones, etc. while they may be used against Americans can also be used against others. Essentially there's an arms race, and we use our tax money to sponsor our government in this race, with the hopes that they'll side with us. There really isn't another option unless you want t…

> Somethings like spying on American phone calls (or just their "metadata") I agree with.

> But somethings like breaking encryption, exploiting iPhones, etc. while they may be used against Americans can also be used against others.

Both of these can have a chilling effect on free speech, therefore I'm against the CIA doing this to citizens. The potential threat against citizens nowhere near outweighs the need to uphold our constitution.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#26

Post by [deleted] »

dictum wrote: post #21
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country. If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country. The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic cho…

[deleted]

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#27

Post by nickelcitymario »

dictum wrote: post #21
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country. If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country. The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic cho…

> "...it doesn't explain why domestic mass surveillance should be ruled out."

It's a matter of who we have a responsibility towards.

The government we elect in our own country is responsible to us, and as a people we widely do not want our government spying on us. (This is true in most if not all countries.)

But that same government is NOT responsible to the citizens of other nations. The CIA has no responsibility towards Canadians (like myself) or anyone else who isn't American.

I'm not arguing that this is ethically right. I'm just saying it's pragmatic.

If you're not a citizen of my country, my country has no legal obligations to you outside of international law. And no country, to my knowledge, has ever tried to introduce the right to privacy into international law. Every country hates spies within its own borders, but seeks to have them inside of everyone else's.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#28

Post by leggomylibro »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #5

Nothing in this article is surprising. I mean, honestly, if you don't think the CIA is actively trying to gain access to your devices, WTF do you think they do all day? I'd be more concerned if the intelligence agencies of the world WEREN'T doing this. It's their purpose. It's what we pay them for with our taxes. Of course we should also always root for tech companies to stay one step ahead. But infosec is an arms ra…

Aren't domestic investigations the FBI's job, though? Why does the CIA have jurisdiction to steal the intellectual property of an American company?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#29

Post by nickelcitymario »

0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #23
nickelcitymario wrote: post #5

Nothing in this article is surprising. I mean, honestly, if you don't think the CIA is actively trying to gain access to your devices, WTF do you think they do all day? I'd be more concerned if the intelligence agencies of the world WEREN'T doing this. It's their purpose. It's what we pay them for with our taxes. Of course we should also always root for tech companies to stay one step ahead. But infosec is an arms ra…

Well yes, and I also hope we don't know what they do all day. Another point worth making is that the government can't really be on your team, as they tend to hog the ball/puck.

> "the government can't really be on your team"

That's kind of the root problem of democracy, isn't it? If a government truly is "of the people, by the people, for the people", then they are by definition on their people's team, and their people should trust them.

But, if they can't in fact be on your team, and if you can't trust them, then you can't really have a democracy, can you? You end up with something else, something that looks like democracy but really isn't.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015)

#30

Post by marnett »

dictum wrote: post #21
whatshisface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WTF do you think they do all day? One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country. If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country. The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic cho…

The American revolution was started because citizens did not want the government in their homes.
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