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'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

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Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#21

Post by ken »

holowire wrote: post #3

I actually just picked up 'The Wake' a couple of weeks ago. There is definitely a learning curve to Kingsnorth's "shadow tongue," but once you get the hang of it, it is very immersive and rewarding to read. It really gives you a sense of foreign place and time, as a story set in 1066 should. What surprised me is how effective it is at establishing a perspective from which you can really feel the relationship that the…

"Cloud Atlas" is another book that uses different writing styles for different eras -- 6 of them, I think. Every new chapter, it takes a little while to figure out the language.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#22

Post by JoeDaDude »

When I read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, I found myself using many words from the slang language he invented, an amalgamation of Russian and English. (The slang language got minimal treatment in the film, you'll have to read the book). I'll have to read The Wake to see if it happens again. I still remember "horrorshow", it means good or cool, comes from the Russian "khorosho".

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#23

Post by arebours »

234x1fchqaefn wrote: post #13
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #7

>> Kingsnorth said this is because the words we use to describe our world shape our perception of it. That's the concept of Linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity The strong version says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. The weak version says that linguistic categories…

The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited to your language. The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your language colors your tho…

> The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts.

It depends on what's the thing you define a language. It might be that dictionary and grammar are only a kind of projection of a more blurry, hidden structure - a language "core". Think of how children sometimes invent new words and how these words immediately "click" with fluent speakers even if they mean shit.

IANAL(inguist) so take it with a grain of salt.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#24

Post by arebours »

arebours wrote: post #23
234x1fchqaefn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited to your language. The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your language colors your tho…

> The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. It depends on what's the thing you define a language. It might be that dictionary and grammar are only a kind of projection of a more blurry, hidden structure - a language "core". Think of how children sometimes invent new words and how these words immediately…

Oh, and another thing. Knowing a word is not a 0 or 1 kind of situation. More often than not if you're not sure about some word you're able to successfully guess some of its meaning or at least a sentiment associated with it.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#25

Post by NikkiA »

tomgp wrote: post #17
otabdeveloper1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> psuedo-iron-age It's not, it's just phonetic transcription of modern urban English with some SMS-style typing errors thrown in. Really disappointed with the crappy low-effort linguistics in that book.

Couldn't disagree more, many of the words are halfway between two other words or are deconstructions of existing words fragmenting and refracting their meaning though Ridley's understanding of the world. To give the most obvious example; Eusa is a confusion of St Eustace, the USA and Jesus with a rich web of meaning and myth springing from that conflation. The spelling speaks to how the transition from oral to writte…

Except iron age english looks like this:

cwæð þæt se Ælmihtiga eorðan worhte, wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð, gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan leoman to leohte landbuendum, ond gefrætwade foldan sceatas leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop rynna gehwylcum þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.--- Swa þa drihtguman dreamum lifdon, eadiglice, oð ðæt an ongan fyrene fremman feond on helle; wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten, mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold, fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard wonsæli wer weardode hwile, siþðan him Scyppend forscrifen hæfde in Caines cynne--- þone cwealm gewræc ece Drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog; ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac hehine feor forwræc, Metod for þy mane mancynne fram. Þanon untydras ealle on wocon, eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, swylce gigantas, þa wið Gode wunnon

Which is nothing like phonetic modern english, and thus his point.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#26

Post by arebours »

ajuc wrote: post #9

Aleksander Gołubiew wrote historic novels in Polish "archaized" in similar manner. I especially like his "Bolesław Chrobry" series, also set in 10th-11th century, but in Poland. Sadly it wasn't translated to English, it's a very interesting book. Kinda like Game of Thrones but higher percentage of real history and no fantasy elements (other than people believing in folklore). It's very funny experience to read it, at…

I feel like you always have to bend the language to match the context. I think it was Sapkowski on his Narrenturm series (which happens to be set in the late Middle Ages) who said that even though he didn't want to specifically archaize the language he couldn't use a modern version of it either. Some new words/concepts like "computer" or "holocaust" would feel out of place and be immediately spotted by the reader.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#27

Post by notduncansmith »

234x1fchqaefn wrote: post #13
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #7

>> Kingsnorth said this is because the words we use to describe our world shape our perception of it. That's the concept of Linguistic relativity, also known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity The strong version says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. The weak version says that linguistic categories…

The strong version is hilariously easy to destroy: if you're cognitively limited to your language, then you cannot create new words, let alone new concepts. Since it is patently false that no new words or new concepts are created, by Modus Tollens, it is also false that you are cognitively limited to your language. The weak version seems true to me. I think it is absolutely the case that your language colors your tho…

I think this is a limited interpretation of the hypothesis. The version of your brain that doesn’t have an idea is unable to think of it. You can then synthesize a new idea from your existing ideas, and no longer have that version of your brain (you have a minor, or in some cases major, version bump). Then once you have the new version of your brain with the new idea, you can use it to further synthesize new ideas. This process of reflection and intellectual growth is the only way to break out of your SW prison is to synthesize new ideas - until you do, you are exactly as the hypothesis says, limited to the ideas you currently have. Sometimes this process is involuntary, so it doesn’t feel like you just booted up a new version of yourself.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#28

Post by castratikron »

JoeDaDude wrote: post #22

When I read "A Clockwork Orange" by Anthony Burgess, I found myself using many words from the slang language he invented, an amalgamation of Russian and English. (The slang language got minimal treatment in the film, you'll have to read the book). I'll have to read The Wake to see if it happens again. I still remember "horrorshow", it means good or cool, comes from the Russian "khorosho".

Also "otchkies" meaning "glasses". Means the same in Russian. I'll say it in English every once and a while.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#29

Post by robocat »

otabdeveloper1 wrote: post #15
ranko wrote: post #11

If you like The Wake , you might also enjoy Riddley Walker ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddley_Walker ), which uses an imaginary psuedo-iron-age dialect transcribed phonetically: "On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen."

> psuedo-iron-age It's not, it's just phonetic transcription of modern urban English with some SMS-style typing errors thrown in. Really disappointed with the crappy low-effort linguistics in that book.

I don't get your beef.

Riddley WaIker is set in an unspecified, post-apocalyptic era in the future.

Re: 'The Wake' Is an Unlikely Hit in an Imaginary Language (2015)

#30

Post by holowire »

spudlyo wrote: post #19
holowire wrote: post #3

I actually just picked up 'The Wake' a couple of weeks ago. There is definitely a learning curve to Kingsnorth's "shadow tongue," but once you get the hang of it, it is very immersive and rewarding to read. It really gives you a sense of foreign place and time, as a story set in 1066 should. What surprised me is how effective it is at establishing a perspective from which you can really feel the relationship that the…

Thanks for the recommendation, I just might do that. I was relieved to see it has a glossary[0] so you're not completely at sea. I remember getting all the way through Trainspotting without realizing that there was a glossary in the back of the book, which was a facepalm moment. [0]: https://unbound.com/books/the-wake/updates/glossary

Oh yes—I should have mentioned the glossary. Thanks for calling that out—it is absolutely necessary in making it an enjoyable read. Once you get a grasp on it though, it's pretty easy to infer meaning of new words as you go.
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