European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes • Hacker News Board

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#21

Post by BerislavLopac » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #10

setr wrote: post #3

>The proposal would give each member state a choice from 2021: either to keep the current summer time system or scrap the twice-yearly clock changes So if you travelled vertically within a timezone, you could end up going back and forth by an hour repeatedly, depending on the state’s decision made here? Truly, a design made by committee.

> So if you travelled vertically within a timezone, you could end up going back and forth by an hour repeatedly, depending on the state’s decision made here? See: Arizona

You already have that in EU -- Spain is observing CET (and its summer equivalent CEST) even though it is pretty much completely in the same time zone as Great Britain.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#22

Post by taejo » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #9

I don't have a strong opinion on whether we're better off with or without the seasonal time change. But I don't like the idea of individual member states opting in or out, which is what this ruling allows. I've lived the past few years in a border town where many people will live in Germany and commute to Austria, or live in Austria but do their regular shopping in Germany, or regularly go on weekend mountain hikes t…

> two regions would end up in different time zones for half the year

AIUI, every pair of countries will (like now) either always be in the same time zone or always be in different ones. Daylight Savings Time is being abolished; the choice is whether the permanent time zone will be the current summer one or the current winter one. Germany and Austria, being closely connected and at simular longitudes will probably choose the same one.

Currently Germany shares a timezone with all of it's neighbours. Most Germans seem to think they would prefer UTC+2; there would probably be no reason in that case for Germany's eastern neighbours (including Austria) to go to UTC+1. It's Germany's western neighbours that might end up on a different timezone. Certainly permanent UTC+2 seems crazy for Spain (which is geographically in the UTC zone); France and the Benelux countries are more of a toss-up.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#23

Post by avar » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

seszett wrote: post #12

avar wrote: post #4

> There were 4.6 million replies [to the online] consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. Germans make up around 15% of the EU population. So by this metric they've got an out-sized democratic participation in the EU by a factor of almost 5x. As seen on a solar map [1][2] Germany isn't even particularly badly impacted by this issue compared to say France or Spain. There's some truth to the saying that Germany ba…

There were other consultations though. In the French poll, 2 million answers were given and 84% were also in favor of ending time savings, 60% wanted to keep summer time rather than winter time. For some reason, people often take France and Spain as examples of countries that would be badly impacted by a decision "taken by the Germans", but France and Spain are very much in favor of staying on summer time. I don't kn…

What survey are you referring to? I mean the one the EU did: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm

Either you're mis-recalling that "2 million" number for France, or very coincidentally there was some poll specific to France whose result in France was exactly the same (84%) as the one the Commission conducted across the EU.

In any case, whether citizens in specific EU countries participate in polls held locally or held by member states isn't relevant if we're discussing how much citizens in various countries directly engage with EU institutions.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#24

Post by FearNotDaniel » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

seszett wrote: post #6

setr wrote: post #3

>The proposal would give each member state a choice from 2021: either to keep the current summer time system or scrap the twice-yearly clock changes So if you travelled vertically within a timezone, you could end up going back and forth by an hour repeatedly, depending on the state’s decision made here? Truly, a design made by committee.

That's already what happens if you go from France to the UK or Spain to Portugal, so it's not really something new.

UK/France isn't such an issue, there's a big stretch of water in between that takes a minimum of an hour to get across by any mode of transport (once you factor in waiting/boarding time).

Not sure how many people make daily border crossings between Spain/Portugal like those I described in my other comment, but even then it is something new if the time difference between states varies with the time of year.

In short, if your country opts out of summer time but your close neighbours don't, all those living in densely populated border areas are still affected by the summer time changes, only with the added complexity that your neighbours in the next suburb don't always keep the same time that you do...

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#25

Post by avar » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #9

I don't have a strong opinion on whether we're better off with or without the seasonal time change. But I don't like the idea of individual member states opting in or out, which is what this ruling allows. I've lived the past few years in a border town where many people will live in Germany and commute to Austria, or live in Austria but do their regular shopping in Germany, or regularly go on weekend mountain hikes t…

How is this any different than various people bordering Germany thinking they can just pop in for some shopping, only to discover it's Sunday and pretty much everything's closed?

Maybe the result of countries being able to fiddle with DST is going to be silly, but it's a big stretch to think that it's something the EU must centrally enforce as an economic union.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#26

Post by FearNotDaniel » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #8

wongarsu wrote: post #2

I'm glad we are getting rid of daylight savings time. It's a biannual disruption of sleep cycles that costs lives (in increased accident rates) for at best marginal benefits: for most of europe sunrise and sunset times change too fast for an additional hour to really matter. Still, I think given the choice most people would have prefered to stay in summer time instead of winter time (or equivalently: to abolish DST a…

> Under the new legislation, governments opting to make summer time permanent would adjust their clocks for the last time on the last Sunday in March 2021. For those choosing permanent standard time - also called winter time - the final clock change would be on the last Sunday of October 2021. It's down to the member states to decide but I think most would prefer summer; save for maybe the Nordics, where the vast dif…

Iceland is not in the EU. And also has no land borders with member states. So it doesn't really matter what they choose to do from a Europe-wide perspective.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#27

Post by seszett » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:39 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #23

seszett wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were other consultations though. In the French poll, 2 million answers were given and 84% were also in favor of ending time savings, 60% wanted to keep summer time rather than winter time. For some reason, people often take France and Spain as examples of countries that would be badly impacted by a decision "taken by the Germans", but France and Spain are very much in favor of staying on summer time. I don't kn…

What survey are you referring to? I mean the one the EU did: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-5302_en.htm Either you're mis-recalling that "2 million" number for France, or very coincidentally there was some poll specific to France whose result in France was exactly the same (84%) as the one the Commission conducted across the EU. In any case, whether citizens in specific EU countries participate in polls h…

This is the French survey: http://www2.assemblee-nationale.fr/15/autres-commissions/com...

The results are here: https://www.vie-publique.fr/actualite/alaune/changement-heur... and 2 103 999 persons answered it, with 83.71% being in favor of dropping daylight savings time.

That served as a basis for the French government's contribution to the draft that was voted on at the EU parliament. The draft didn't drop from the sky, it was written by the European commission, which is made up of representatives from all EU countries.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#28

Post by FearNotDaniel » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

Dumbdo wrote: post #20

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #9

I don't have a strong opinion on whether we're better off with or without the seasonal time change. But I don't like the idea of individual member states opting in or out, which is what this ruling allows. I've lived the past few years in a border town where many people will live in Germany and commute to Austria, or live in Austria but do their regular shopping in Germany, or regularly go on weekend mountain hikes t…

I think you misunderstood that bit, see this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19491551

Well yes, I believed the BBC reporter's description of the proposal instead of bothering to read the source document. That's thankfully a bit less ludicrous than what the article suggested.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#29

Post by Wildgoose » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #4

> There were 4.6 million replies [to the online] consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. Germans make up around 15% of the EU population. So by this metric they've got an out-sized democratic participation in the EU by a factor of almost 5x. As seen on a solar map [1][2] Germany isn't even particularly badly impacted by this issue compared to say France or Spain. There's some truth to the saying that Germany ba…

If you don't vote, don't complain. I live in the UK and I also voted to end the twice-yearly wrecking of our body-clocks with the attendant accidents, injuries and deaths.

Moreover from an IT perspective it would be convenient if we don't pick permanent Daylight Saving Time in that the UK would effectively always be using UTC.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#30

Post by madcaptenor » Tue, Mar 26, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

renholder wrote: post #8

wongarsu wrote: post #2

I'm glad we are getting rid of daylight savings time. It's a biannual disruption of sleep cycles that costs lives (in increased accident rates) for at best marginal benefits: for most of europe sunrise and sunset times change too fast for an additional hour to really matter. Still, I think given the choice most people would have prefered to stay in summer time instead of winter time (or equivalently: to abolish DST a…

> Under the new legislation, governments opting to make summer time permanent would adjust their clocks for the last time on the last Sunday in March 2021. For those choosing permanent standard time - also called winter time - the final clock change would be on the last Sunday of October 2021. It's down to the member states to decide but I think most would prefer summer; save for maybe the Nordics, where the vast dif…

Iceland is already on permanent summer time. Reykjavik is at longitude 22 degrees west, so they're "naturally" in GMT-1 (and close to the line with GMT-2) but they use GMT year-round. (The country as a whole is between 13 degrees west and 25 degrees west.)