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Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#21

Post by iwr »

johnnygood wrote: post #14
iwr wrote: post #9

This may sound harsh, but an army of slaves (i.e. conscripts) is incompatible with a free country. If the citizens can't be mustered to volunteer in its defense, the current state as a social organization becomes obsolete. Granted, there are many Israelis who would indeed volunteer and militarily, they are not in danger.

I'm not trying to be harsh on your concept, but if one takes it a little further: "If the citizens can't be mustered to volunteer their taxes. . ." One of the ideas behind government is that certain situations are prisoner's dilemmas and that a central authority can make sure that the situation comes out equally for all. Rather than having people volunteer taxes, we write laws forcing people to pay them so that some…

If the citizens can't be mustered to pay taxes, then that too is a condemnation of the state. Note that countries with high levels of corruption also tend to have high tax evasion among the tax base.

Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#22

Post by snotrockets »

endtime wrote: post #19
idan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, no. If you are certified as combat-capable, and you are placed with a combat unit, you must go. If you refuse, you go to army jail. Army jail time does not count as service time, so when you get out of army jail, you still have a term of service to complete.

That may be true, but not for women. The article only mentions catching women, who (I believe) have multiple non-military options for their national service.

Not so.

In Israel, military service is compulsory for women as well, and there is no option for non-military compulsory national service.

Non-military national service is voluntarily open to those exempt from military service for various reasons. But it isn't a must, and you can be exempt from military service, and not do any national service.

Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#23

Post by tkahn6 »

idan wrote: post #13
tkahn6 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be orthogonal to your point, but understand that only the willing actually serve in combat roles. Granted all go through basic training and then reserve training periodically after they finish their service, but that's because in a time of real existential danger, everyone fights.

Um, no. If you are certified as combat-capable, and you are placed with a combat unit, you must go. If you refuse, you go to army jail. Army jail time does not count as service time, so when you get out of army jail, you still have a term of service to complete.

Ah ok. Is it not true, however, that it is very easy to 'fail' the combat readiness tests if one was so inclined? I've heard (from friends/cousins in Israel) that most Israeli youth are aware of various tactics to get out of combat service.

Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#24

Post by tkahn6 »

mhd wrote: post #17
tkahn6 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that "light a fire thingy" applies to electronics. And for multiple reasons I highly doubt she hired a gentile to update her Facebook status (who would be reading it?).

I know that it applies, so I just wondered (tongue in cheek) whether hiring a shabbos goy for Facebook updates would be, well, kosher.

That's a good question. I have 'orthodox' friends that have timers on their TVs to come on during Shabbat. I don't keep shabbat but that would seem to defeat the purpose IMO.

Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#25

Post by steve19 »

iwr wrote: post #20
dagw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea behind conscription is not to have an "army of slaves" but to make sure that if you are ever required to muster citizens for your defense, then those citizens will have had at least basic military training and be useful for roles other than bullet magnets.

The greater idea would be that free people should not be forced to go and wage aggressive war. If a political entity decides in favor of war and there is conscription, individuals can't legally refuse if they disagree. Sure, aggressive wars can be waged with professional armies, but then at least there is the possibility of opting out. In the case of defensive war, there are two options: take refuge or take up arms.…

Let me first say that I wholeheartedly oppose conscription. I know former conscripts from a couple of different countries and they really disliked their time in the military.

But ...

You are confusing cause and effect. Israel and South Korea, have conscription because of war. Both would rather live in peace but both are technically at war and have been for decades. Not to be confused with conscription during Vietnam which was a foreign war.

> As an aside, in a country with conscription there would be no civilians

It depends on the country, but my understanding is that you can choose to relinquish your citizenship you no longer have to serve. Of course you would need to seek refugee status in a sympathetic country.

You cannot always have the benefits of citizenship without paying a cost.

Re: Israel uses Facebook to catch 1,000 draft dodgers

#26

Post by endtime »

snotrockets wrote: post #22
endtime wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but not for women. The article only mentions catching women, who (I believe) have multiple non-military options for their national service.

Not so. In Israel, military service is compulsory for women as well, and there is no option for non-military compulsory national service. Non-military national service is voluntarily open to those exempt from military service for various reasons. But it isn't a must, and you can be exempt from military service, and not do any national service.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. What I should have said, and what I was thinking, was that there are non-combat options for women. I don't know if women are allowed to be lochemim but I am pretty sure they aren't forced to - right?
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