Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

itworld.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#21

Post by Andrew_Quentin »

tedunangst wrote: post #10
szpindel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's sadly true. Same goes for WL's recent policy of sensationalism; in their early years, they simply released documents. Now it's dramatic titles, commentary, expensive media deals. I have nothing against WL for this; it's simply a sign that, unless things are made dramatic - indeed, even if things are made dramatic, after the first few weeks - the public no longer care.

I actually care less when things are made dramatic. When WL was a repository of truth, I supported it. As its mission changes to become an agent for change, I support it less.

Change comes from truth and truth leads to change. I do not quite understand your argument either. Are you unable to stick to the "truth" part and ignore the "agenda" part.

It is like in literature classes when you start talking about the personal life of the author. Does it matter what he does or is, or is the book and the book alone that matters?

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#22

Post by cabalamat »

yequalsx wrote: post #19
GHFigs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces. hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effe…

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing…

> One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses.

Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just becoming democratic), it would be extremely naive to expect Iraqi forces never to violate human rights.

Unless the USA wants to stay in Iraq forever -- which would be unacceptable to both the American and Iraqi publics, and would make the situation worse anyway -- they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#23

Post by yequalsx »

cabalamat wrote: post #22
yequalsx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access. One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing…

> One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. Realistically, I'm not sure there's a lot the USA could do. When US forces arrest an Iraqi within Iraq, then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. Given where Iraq is now (a history of repression, just bec…

"...then it's a violation of Iraqi sovereignty not to hand him over to the Iraqi authorities. "

Ha. Funny.

"...they have to accept that some torture and other human rights violations will occur."

I'm reminded of Bush writing, "Let freedom ring" on the memo he got after the new Iraq government was instituted.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#24

Post by iterationx »

Eliezer wrote: post #17
iterationx wrote: post #3

... In October the group released a package of almost 400,000 documents called the Iraq War Logs in coordination with major commercial media organisations. 7 x 400,000 = 2.8m documents? You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.

> You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over. Welcome to my quotes file. Do you want a name on that in case I use it sometime?

My handle's fine, I'm just summarizing Edward Bernay's ideas from Propaganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book)

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#25

Post by forza »

jon_hendry wrote: post #8
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

The main thing about the Iraq War Logs was that there was nothing particularly new or surprising or shocking. Details about incidents, but nothing war critics didn't already assume had happened many times. When someone says "We've got horrible things to reveal", your imagination fills in the blanks, extrapolating from what we've already found out to even more horrible extremes. But then what Wikileaks revealed didn't…

Do you seriously believe the whole "the leak is very serious, but at the same time trivial"-story? It's a classic defense mechanism or tactic, depending on who you ask, in crisis management. I don't know any good English sources for this off the top of my head, but I it's called "trivialization", "minimization" or "disavowal". You can also google "crisis communication", "crisis management" or "image restoration" and you'll probably find something interesting like http://www.ou.edu/deptcomm/dodjcc/groups/98A1/Benoit.htm

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#26

Post by tedunangst »

Andrew_Quentin wrote: post #21
tedunangst wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually care less when things are made dramatic. When WL was a repository of truth, I supported it. As its mission changes to become an agent for change, I support it less.

Change comes from truth and truth leads to change. I do not quite understand your argument either. Are you unable to stick to the "truth" part and ignore the "agenda" part. It is like in literature classes when you start talking about the personal life of the author. Does it matter what he does or is, or is the book and the book alone that matters?

Yes, I find it hard to focus on the truth (or rather, believe they are telling the truth) when the agenda gets in the way.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#27

Post by grandalf »

tptacek wrote: post #14
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias. Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial wa…

It did enhance aspects of the US narrative, and diminished others. This is a good thing, since it added to the overall truthfulness of the narrative.

US strategy has been to hide the proxy war it's fighting with Iran from the American public, while increasing the rhetoric/rancor against Iran, so that eventually if/when there is more open conflict, the American people already view the Iranian people as barbaric subhumans.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#28

Post by forza »

nodata wrote: post #18
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

Can you recommend a good analysis of the Iraq leak?

This might be obvious, but maybe it will be helpful for someone:

Wikileaks: http://warlogs.wikileaks.org/ Diary dig: http://warlogs.wikileaks.org/iraq/diarydig War logs: http://warlogs.owni.fr/

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iraq-war-logs Der Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/iraq_war_logs/ Bureau of Investigative Journalism: http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/ Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/secretiraqfiles/

Video - Bureau of Investigative Journalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDxADbXhuU Al Jazeera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU718vXkrwY

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#29

Post by lhnz »

Eliezer wrote: post #17
iterationx wrote: post #3

... In October the group released a package of almost 400,000 documents called the Iraq War Logs in coordination with major commercial media organisations. 7 x 400,000 = 2.8m documents? You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.

> You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over. Welcome to my quotes file. Do you want a name on that in case I use it sometime?

It amuses me that you say this... A while back I started secretly quoting people from new.yc on my tumblr when they said something intelligent.

Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations

#30

Post by commandar »

jon_hendry wrote: post #8
yequalsx wrote: post #2

One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.

The main thing about the Iraq War Logs was that there was nothing particularly new or surprising or shocking. Details about incidents, but nothing war critics didn't already assume had happened many times. When someone says "We've got horrible things to reveal", your imagination fills in the blanks, extrapolating from what we've already found out to even more horrible extremes. But then what Wikileaks revealed didn't…

This is really the key and why I've never liked the comparisons to the Pentagon Papers. Wikileaks may have changed the narrative at the margins, but overall the leak didn't reveal much about the big picture that hasn't been common knowledge for a good while.

The Pentagon Papers, on the other hand, revealed that multiple presidential administrations had deliberately lied to the public about what was going on in Vietnam. The Downing Street memo is probably the closest Iraq war analogue.

Post reply on HN