21–30 of 73 posts
We are shifting more and more towards a legal system where not only those who actually did something wrong (here the tax evaders), but also those whose services have been used to do so are considered guilty. Another example is copyright, where websites are increasingly held liable for user uploads. I'm not convinced that this is a good development.
Does anyone know what the likelyhood of the 4.2B being paid out is? I imagine that UBS will go through all possible appeals processes. Also if the article is right in that this was affected by the protests, then that is a big win for protesting.
Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're exaggerating. Due diligence is a thing in most professional services. Banks have been complicit in money laundering and tax evasion for decades and they have shown that they have little interest in solving these issues.
Software Developers have been complicit in copyright infringement for decades and they have shown that they have little interest in solving these issues. Just like bits have no color for you[1] dollars had no color for bankers for a long time. Stopping money laundering in your organization is just as much pain as stopping copyright infringement on your system. [1] https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Well, it's been established empirically that such is not the case, and that the supposed statistics by the copyright lobbyists on the damage of piracy are outright lies.
Moreover, there is a very strong argument to be made that strong enforcement of copyright goes against several rights that individuals have whose values are above copyright. Privacy, fair use, distribution, preservation of knowledge and culture all have higher priority in many jurisdictions and the fight in this matter for the past two decades has shown that the argument in favor of strong copyright enforcement is not for the benefit of all.
But money laundering? Tax evasion? There are few if any arguments that support what is essentially billions and billions of dollars of theft from the commons where there is real, easily quantified damage to the entirety of society.
Arguments such as yours are fundamentally weak in that you expect that mere substitution of terms equates to... anything really. I don't know what world you live in where that's a strong proposition.
Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…
HSBC allegedly laundered (not revenue, not profit, they laundered ) $880 million. They were fined $1.9 billion. Not "fined about half"
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was 4.2 billion not million, it probably should have been more, but that's definitely not a slap on the wrist.
Right. For context, that's around 9% if their $48 billion market cap. Much worse than sending any one person to jail. Also: in the US, I've heard the "value of saving a life" for some decision calculations to be assumed at ten million dollars. That's $200k per year for 50 years. (In New Zealand, from talking to some civil engineers, it is a lot lower.) At the American price, the fine is worth 420 human lives.
Does anyone know what the likelyhood of the 4.2B being paid out is? I imagine that UBS will go through all possible appeals processes. Also if the article is right in that this was affected by the protests, then that is a big win for protesting.
I was wondering the same thing. Switzerland is not part of the EU either, what power does the French court have over them other than local branches?
That would be more costly than paying whatever is due after exhausting legal appeals.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Software Developers have been complicit in copyright infringement for decades and they have shown that they have little interest in solving these issues. Just like bits have no color for you[1] dollars had no color for bankers for a long time. Stopping money laundering in your organization is just as much pain as stopping copyright infringement on your system. [1] https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
The analogy doesn't work. You've constructed a fragile argument by simple substitution as though money laundering and tax evasion had the same impact and damage as copyright infringement. Well, it's been established empirically that such is not the case, and that the supposed statistics by the copyright lobbyists on the damage of piracy are outright lies. Moreover, there is a very strong argument to be made that stro…
Now it is my personal and completely biased opinion that money laundering and tax evasion are very big problems affecting society negatively, while copyright infringement on-line is mostly a non-issue due to IP laws being abusive; still, while relatively different in importance, the problems are still similar in the way GP describes them.
(And in both cases you learn that color is very important to the law.)
Another slap on the wrist. No one goes to jail because of Deferred Prosecution Agreements HSBC got fined about half that when they caught laundering money for the Mexican cartels a few years back. True story: HSBC had to design special teller windows because the standard ones were too small to fit the sacks of money that were being brought in and laundered. If you want to know why these guys don't go to jail, pull up…
I think many would be happy to go to jail and keeo the billions instead.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The analogy doesn't work. You've constructed a fragile argument by simple substitution as though money laundering and tax evasion had the same impact and damage as copyright infringement. Well, it's been established empirically that such is not the case, and that the supposed statistics by the copyright lobbyists on the damage of piracy are outright lies. Moreover, there is a very strong argument to be made that stro…
The GP's point is fair, though. Money is fungible, which is just another way of saying that it has no color. Anti-money-laundering schemes are essentially DRM for money. Now it is my personal and completely biased opinion that money laundering and tax evasion are very big problems affecting society negatively, while copyright infringement on-line is mostly a non-issue due to IP laws being abusive; still, while relati…
I imagine most of us here have never felt like our money had "DRM" on it.
Our money is, in fact, a different color from the terrorists'.