Imagine if the big world powers built computers with control over the nuclear arsenals as well as nuclear defense to have superhuman first strike and retaliation capabilities. Imagine if those computers realized that the biggest threat to peace is not the other side but the fact that humans, a warmonger species, control them. Imagine them colluding and trying to establish world control using their nuclear arsenals. G…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project It's a fantastic movie I ought to rewatch one of these days...
Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
21–30 of 57 posts
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#22Imagine if the big world powers built computers with control over the nuclear arsenals as well as nuclear defense to have superhuman first strike and retaliation capabilities. Imagine if those computers realized that the biggest threat to peace is not the other side but the fact that humans, a warmonger species, control them. Imagine them colluding and trying to establish world control using their nuclear arsenals. G…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project It's a fantastic movie I ought to rewatch one of these days...
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
This assumes competitive markets which allow them to do anything about it. For example (in the U.S. at least), when your local cable company raises prices for Internet services that effectively signals to the local telco that they can too. Sure, the market notices this but has few, if any, other options. (a big assumption is that you even have the option of both cable and telco ISP service in your area.) If all it ta…
True, heavily regulated government sectors struggle from this(medical for instance), but online is nearly anarchy. I don't see Amazon having ability to screw customers (forever). And those sectors you are talking about need serious reform that the incumbents DONT want.
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#24"these autonomous pricing algorithms may independently discover that if they are to make the highest possible profit, they should avoid price wars. That is, they may learn to collude" No, sorry, not what collusion is. It's pretty much business school 101 that price is a terrible way to compete unless you actually have a sustainable comparable advantage on cost or supply -- most people already do this. Collusion invol…
Different people can have different versions of the word “collusion” but the important definition is that in the law, and in most countries it does not require an explicit agreement between parties.
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#25This reminds me of the "Tit for Tat" results of simulations of the prisoners' dilemma[1][2], where cooperating strategies won over competing ones. It also reminds me of Colossus: The Forbin Project [3], a science-fiction movie from 1970 in which a supercomputer in the US and one in the Soviet Union learn to communicate with one another in ways incomprehensible to their human creators and together rule the Earth. [1]…
1) Nobody needs an AI to figure out Tit-for-Tat is a good strategy. It isn't complicated.
2) The technical economic term for this collusion is probably something like 'efficient market price', where the sellers have agreed on what the fair price is to offer their service.
Collusion can't mean that the sellers all have an implicitly coordinated price, because the market is always going to settle on an implicitly coordinated price if conditions aren't changing.
Collusion is something like companies agreeing to strategically offer and not offer services to control their competitors. Like, maybe FedEx has a deal where they refuse to carry online goods that aren't bought from Amazon (don't ask me how to implement that), that would be collusion. I'm not getting a service for my online store because there is an exclusionary deal amongst the big players.
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#26Imagine if the big world powers built computers with control over the nuclear arsenals as well as nuclear defense to have superhuman first strike and retaliation capabilities. Imagine if those computers realized that the biggest threat to peace is not the other side but the fact that humans, a warmonger species, control them. Imagine them colluding and trying to establish world control using their nuclear arsenals. G…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid:_Peace_Walk...
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#27https://a.qoid.us/SSRN-id3310310.pdf
(Couldn’t find it on Sci-Hub, so I paid $5 for it.)
Edit: in particular, it addresses a question I had after seeing the original article and graph… or tries to:
> On the face of it, one may wonder whether the algorithms are effectively punishing the deviation, or whether instead the price cuts simply serve to regain market share. Looking only at the non-deviating firm’s behavior, in fact, it is hard to tell these alternative explanations apart. But if you focus on the behavior of the deviating firm, the difference becomes perfectly clear. Given that in the deviation period (i.e., period τ = 1) the rival has stuck to its old price, in period τ = 2 the deviating algorithm, which meanwhile has regained control of the pricing, has no reason to cut its price endogenously unless it is taking part in the punishment itself. If its only concern were to maintain its market share, the deviating algorithm would cut its price only in period τ = 3, i.e. after observing the rival’s price reduction in period τ = 2. Actually, however, in period τ = 2 the deviating algorithm prices almost exactly the same as the other. This clearly shows that the deviating algorithm is responding not only to its rival’s but also to its own action. Such self-reactive behavior is often crucial to achieve genuine collusion, and it would be difficult to rationalize otherwise.
The problem with this explanation is that the “AI” algorithm they’re using is ridiculously simple. They talk about its input being “the set of all past prices in the last k periods”… and then, for their main experiment, they set k to 1! So unless I’m misunderstanding something, the input at each round literally consists of both players’ chosen prices from the immediately previous round; the algorithm has no memory beyond that. So all it knows is that its price is lower than its competitor’s; how is it in any way surprising that it would decide to increase the price for the next round?
And yes, I mean increase – the authors seem to claim it “cut its price endogenously”, but on the graph, the price clearly increases at τ = 2 compared to τ = 1. It does keep its price “cut” compared to two rounds ago, before the intervention, but again that’s not surprising since it only has memory of the last round.
Am I missing something?
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#28The bigger problem than collusion is the arms race between higher margins and higher ad costs. In the end Facebook and Google will take almost all the margin as consumers see prices rise until they receive zero net value from their purchases.
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#29It does not even have to be AI. If there is an area where the bulk of humans contact a single agency to decide their prices for them and that agency then tells every caller the same price (adjusted for quality differences), then you will get this style of collusion. The agency can merely claim it is doing research on competitors to set prices, which is almost true since it looks at the prices it has told others to ch…
Re: Artificial intelligence, algorithmic pricing, and collusion
#30For the sake of a more informed discussion, here is a copy of the actual paper: https://a.qoid.us/SSRN-id3310310.pdf (Couldn’t find it on Sci-Hub, so I paid $5 for it.) Edit: in particular, it addresses a question I had after seeing the original article and graph… or tries to: > On the face of it, one may wonder whether the algorithms are effectively punishing the deviation, or whether instead the price cuts simply se…