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A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 69 posts

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#21
post #5

This is the old theory that the nobility domesticated peasants while the peasants were domesticating animals.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory.

Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male.

Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed all the males of the losing tribe and bred with the females.

Also, we have evidence that the greatest genetic winners are warriors/leaders like genghis khan and charlemagne.

Historical, genetic and biological evidence debunks the female selection theory.

As for the "pruning of violent individuals by the whole group". That too is nonsense. It is the most violent group who establishes order. Law and order isn't anything the group decided on. Rather law and order is something a small group of violent elites forced on the masses.

Think about the US. The group didn't vote on independence. Rather it was a small group of violent elites. During the revolution, at most 30% of the colonial population supported independence.

Think about the current world order ( aka international order ). Nobody voted for it. It was forced on the world by 2 world wars, 1 cold war and 200 million dead people.

Or look at china. Tens of millions of people died in order for order to be enforced on that gigantic nation.

The idea that female selection or pruning of violent individuals is how humans tamed themselves simply isn't true. Also, the idea that humans tamed themselves is simply a lie as well. We were tamed through law, order and lots of violence. Also, full bellies and distractions ( bread and circuses ) helped.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile…

What is the effect of males selecting for docile females on future sons and daughters? Or do you believe that males aren't discriminating?

>> What is the effect of males selecting for docile females on future sons and daughters? Or do you believe that males aren't discriminating?

What makes you think males get to select a mate? And who deliberately goes for a docile female?

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#23
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory. Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male. Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#24
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory. Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male. Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

I originally wrote "female selection didn't happen much in human society" but changed it since those societies were rather fringe and aren't the dominant human society.

I know there were pockets of it. I remember watching a documentary on a small chinese ethnic group that practiced matriarchy and polygamy. But that's not the dominant nor the successful human society.

99% of human beings live in a patriarchical society. China, Europe, Americas, most of africa, Middle East, etc.

Edit: Here is the PBS documentary if anyone is interested.

https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/07/introductio...

And the chinese ethnic group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#25
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory. Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male. Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed…

None of what you wrote debunks female selection theory.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory. Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male. Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed…

None of what you wrote debunks female selection theory.

If females don't get to choose who they mate with and breed with, how would female selection theory work?

If tribe A conquers tribe B and kills all the males in tribe B and breeds with all the females in tribe B, how exactly is female selection involved here? Or even if the males in tribe B weren't killed but all the resources were taken by males in tribe A, where does female selection apply?

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you aren't mistaking him for Darwin?

It isn't a novel idea of Darwin's: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_evolutionary_thou...

It really is. In modern context "evolution" doesn't mean "any type of evolution e.g. Lamarckian evolution, evolution from natural selection or Pokemon evolution from leveling up". It really just means "evolution from natural selection" which is not only a novel idea proposed by Darwin, but Darwin also pioneered to research on this idea (i.e. going around the world and collecting specimens that could potentially falsify his hypothesis but instead support it).

That Plato thought your mind transfers from your previous souls and this is called "evolution" is simply an accident of language.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy

I originally wrote "female selection didn't happen much in human society" but changed it since those societies were rather fringe and aren't the dominant human society. I know there were pockets of it. I remember watching a documentary on a small chinese ethnic group that practiced matriarchy and polygamy. But that's not the dominant nor the successful human society. 99% of human beings live in a patriarchical societ…

True.

Most of the matriarchies were in Africa, and they were decimated completely when European colonizers showed up.

There were a few matriarchies elsewhere, but not many.

Most human societies were patriarchies.

It would be interesting, from a purely scientific point of view, to see what the african matriarchies would have developed into? How does that sort of thing affect development? Etc.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#29
post #2

Funny, Freud suggested something very similar in _Totem and Taboo_, and faced a lot of ridicule for it. Would be interesting if he were finally vindicated to some extent.

He's been vindicated time and time again, his theories are the most influential of any one writer in psychology. I took a great books course and had to struggle through MULTIPLE made up case studies, and pretend these are "great" when it's just BS. Still, thousands reading his works every year and universities vindicating his theories doesn't mean he didn't fabricate data, espouse cocaine use, and all of the other negatives people bring up time and again.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#30
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

I see that theory about female selection being pushed a lot lately, but it's a fairly easily debunked theory. Female selection didn't occur in human society. Females didn't get to choose who they married. Rather it was the men who decided which females marry which male. Also, there is far less diversity in the Y chromosome than the X. The best possible explanation is during ancient tribal war, the winning side killed…

I think you missed a very important detail: Everything you wrote talks in terms of groups. There's a cutoff level of aggression past which individuals wouldn't be able to function as a group.

Evolution doesn't work in terms of positively selecting the "strong", it works by selecting out the "weak". In this case, the point isn't that we positively selected the most peaceful. Instead, we selected out those so violent they wouldn't even be able to organise into a tribe.

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