Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#21

Post by capkutay » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

Sorry but this is bullshit.

As others have mentioned, public transit beats uber/lyft when its actually the better, faster service (e.g. London, Tokyo).

But when public transit is poorly planned, slow, dirty, crime-ridden like it often is in the US, uber/lyft wins every time. Even when cities like San Francisco choose to spend billions on improving public transit, they mess it up every single time. There's a long list of hilariously short sighted decisions made on projects like the Transbay Terminal, The Central Subway, Geary/Van Ness BRT.

My daily commute literally runs along the t-line in San Francisco, but I never take it because it's basically the same speed as walking, slower than biking, slower than uber'ing. Poor planning and management is the cause of public transit's decline.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#22

Post by thisisweirdok » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

GlickWick wrote: post #9

I know it's only an anecdote, but myself (and many other colleagues) in Boston switched to periodically using rideshares to commute due to the decline in public transit quality. The tech boom in the area completely overloaded the system, and when you combine it with the rampant corruption behind the MBTA, this was inevitable. Uber and Lyft have not been the best actors, but someone was going to step in and profit off…

Unfortunately this only exacerbates the problem as ridership declines. I know students in Boston who have literally never taken public transportation. 5 years ago this would be unheard of.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#23

Post by Scoundreller » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #4

nostromo wrote: post #2

Public transportation can only win by competing with the alternatives. When I'm in Tokyo I don't use Uber because the train system is so clean, fast, and safe; I have no incentive to use an Uber. When I'm in places with slow buses that get stuck in traffic, or operate trains with disgusting facilities, I'm more likely to choose Uber.

When the wealthy[1] can opt out of having to use public services, those public services tend to be crap. When the wealthy are forced to use public services, all of a sudden, they become interested and politically engaged in improving them. Uber doesn't drive improvements in transit in this sense - it starves it of political capital. The best transit services are ones which are used by a wide swathe of the public. [1]…

If you can group it with 2 or 3 people, ride shares become competitive with public transit, let alone the time savings of Door-to-door service.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#24

Post by thatfrenchguy » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #14

vkou wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the wealthy[1] can opt out of having to use public services, those public services tend to be crap. When the wealthy are forced to use public services, all of a sudden, they become interested and politically engaged in improving them. Uber doesn't drive improvements in transit in this sense - it starves it of political capital. The best transit services are ones which are used by a wide swathe of the public. [1]…

Not sure about the ranges on that wealthy comparison- if I wanted to commute to work by bus, it would cost >$6 in bus faires a day in the Bay Area. Splitting a Lyft line in San Francisco often results in math where we actually save money while using a more convenient service. It’s just hard to choose public transit around here when it is unreliable, barely cost competitive and slower.

It's pretty rare you end up spending 3$ for a Lyft in SF. The bus pass is also $78 (or $1.95 a ride assuming you work 20 days a month). It should be cheaper yes, but it's still much cheaper.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#25

Post by bloemy » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

gouggoug wrote: post #18

Blaming Uber and Lyft for public transportation usage decline sounds exactly the same as blaming piracy for the music industry's decline. If public transportation was better, I wouldn't use Lyft as much as I do these days. It'd be interesting to look at countries known for their exceptional public transportation and see if they saw a decline when Uber and Lyft came on the market.

Great point. Coming from Switzerland, which IMO has the best public transportation across the country and in cities in the world, Uber and Lyft simply aren't nearly used as much as here exactly BECAUSE public transportation works as well. I rarely have to take an Uber inside Geneva because buses, trams and trains bring me everywhere, for a decent price (as a student), and until decent hours. So yeah, for me the blame is on the system more than on these apps.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#26

Post by GlickWick » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

basil-rash wrote: post #17

GlickWick wrote: post #9

I know it's only an anecdote, but myself (and many other colleagues) in Boston switched to periodically using rideshares to commute due to the decline in public transit quality. The tech boom in the area completely overloaded the system, and when you combine it with the rampant corruption behind the MBTA, this was inevitable. Uber and Lyft have not been the best actors, but someone was going to step in and profit off…

I've found that if you have more than 2 people (sometimes even just 2, if you pool), it is often cheaper and faster to take an Uber. Quite pathetic on MBTA's side.

The MBTA is also just beyond ridiculous. I work (in the Seaport) approximately 3.9 miles from my residence (Somerville). I can walk home faster than the T will take me there, and Uber/Lyft will also get me there ~4x faster than the T. Using Line/Pool and subsidized carpooling you can easily beat the $2-3 T fare. If you rely on the Commuter Rail for any step, Uber/Lyft crushes it in terms of price.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#27

Post by crdrost » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

It is certainly valid to say that, to first order, Uber and Lyft do not compete with public transit. I get a Lyft from downtown KC to the KC airport about thirty minutes away; I do this because it's about as expensive as airport economy parking will be for several weeks; I do not think twice about public transit because there simply is no public transit route there. But to go to the library or Union Station I'd never take a Lyft; there's a tram that goes to both.

But that gets complicated when we're talking about second-order effects. To second order, yes, it does matter. I have taken both the bus and a Lyft to work when my car was inaccessible. There is competition there, and it's driven by bus transfers. To get close enough that I do not have significant walking to do, I have to accept delays due to bus transfers, and the weather has to be nice enough that I can easily endure those waits outside. Or my budget needs to be tight enough that that makes sense.

It's not surprising to me that public transit sees somewhere in the range of 5-20% decline due to the cheaper taxi service; that is about the range of those second-order effects. But this is also an avoidable loss: with the widespread use of cell phones it may be possible that routes become more customizable, not unlike how school buses work: "this route serves to bring people from that general area to this general area, but of course we tailor it a bit to the individual student population, we don't go down any side-streets if there are no students to pick up there." There is a great potential when city institutions start to get the hang of this new technology stuff, that a bus service could meaningfully get you from where you're at to where you're going without any big pain points, on the assumption that you have a smart-enough cell phone. And that's no longer the marker of wealth that it used to be. If they can really get it right, they can even have the ride-hailing services tied into those systems, the way that cab lines informally used to be: "we're willing to send a fare your way for someone starting at hub X and going to location Y which is outside of our service regions."

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#28

Post by mikejulietbravo » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #12

mikejulietbravo wrote: post #5

This kind of ignores the fact that the quality of public transit has been rapidly declining, and had been before Uber/Lyft came into being. Take the DC metro for example - it used to be arguably the best public rail system in the country. Now, through mismanagement and neglect, it's pretty awful. IMO dirty, unreliable public transport created a massive void that Lyft/Uber have filled.

I'll go a bit further and say that, while Uber/Lyft probably contribute to decline in public transit, those companies exist precisely because of how bad public transit was in those service areas.

100% agree. If you look at SF, there's to get from SOMA to the Marina, you can either take multiple buses plus walk (~50 minutes of travel), or take a lyft/uber which will bring you door to door in less than half the time.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#29

Post by mcfunk » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

>“Single-handedly” may not be quite right, since the paper also finds that cheap gas prices and higher fares have a negative effect on ridership. And this analysis does not include other, more local factors that could be pushing riders off of buses and trains, such as the maintenance and reliability issues plaguing New York City and Washington, D.C. in particular. Nor does it look at safety perceptions among riders, a growing concern on Bay Area transit.

>“Perhaps the presence of innovative modes makes it a more compelling or sexier question to ask, but I think there are lots of reasons people aren’t taking these modes as much as before,” said Susan Shaheen, the co-director of the Transportation Sustainability Research Center at UC Berkeley and an expert in shared mobility. “The question of causality is perplexing and hard, and it’s not necessarily one thing.”

So basically, shocker, correlation does not equal causation and there's a lot going on driving this change.

Also, it'd be interesting to see data that took into account different modes. Light rail ridership in the Twin Cities has soared because (unlike our bus system) it is reliable and predictable, plus easier to use multimodally etc. etc.

And I imagine that most places share the Twin Cities' struggles to combat lawmakers in greater MN who have decided that investing in metro transit is a certain evil.

Re: Another Study Blames Uber and Lyft for Public Transit’s Decline

#30

Post by ct0 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

capkutay wrote: post #21

Sorry but this is bullshit. As others have mentioned, public transit beats uber/lyft when its actually the better, faster service (e.g. London, Tokyo). But when public transit is poorly planned, slow, dirty, crime-ridden like it often is in the US, uber/lyft wins every time. Even when cities like San Francisco choose to spend billions on improving public transit, they mess it up every single time. There's a long list…

To add to this, think about the consistent advertising that Uber and Lyft do, always keeping themselves front of mind regarding transportation. If public transportion decided to market their "on time" rate, things would get a lot more interesting.