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JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

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Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#21

Very interesting: > JMAP is not designed around a persistent network socket, so it’s perfect for webmail clients that connect, do stuff, then disconnect This would allow implementing JMAP in serverless architecture, e.g. self hosting on AWS lambda. That should be very cheap and significantly lower the barrier to self hosting (not needing to manage a box, just providing aws credentials). Think of what it takes to trul…

If everyone hosts their email with Amazon it's gonna be quite centralised.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current state of calendaring is horrible, it's basically not possible right now to create compatible and reliable library/application.

Calendaring truly is surprisingly difficult. Dates and times just are not defined with computers in mind.

Yep, they are extremely difficult. Timezones, group events, repeatable events. RFCs describing calendaring are very vague and miss a lot of important details. And exchange/outlook implementation adds a huge pile of incompatibility.

When I was working on calendaring project I've found lots of ways to create broken events in google calendar for example. They are completely valid according to RFC but absolutely not usable in apps.

Also there are working groups that STILL developing calendaring RFCs, they create tons of esoteric and cryptic documents every year.

P.S. When I write “RFC” I mean any well established standard.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#23
post #14

Very interesting: > JMAP is not designed around a persistent network socket, so it’s perfect for webmail clients that connect, do stuff, then disconnect This would allow implementing JMAP in serverless architecture, e.g. self hosting on AWS lambda. That should be very cheap and significantly lower the barrier to self hosting (not needing to manage a box, just providing aws credentials). Think of what it takes to trul…

I'm not sure I understand: JMAP is designed for communication between the client and the mail server. But you still would need a mail server, always on, to receive the incoming mail from other servers, right ? Did I miss something about JMAP?

Nope, you are exactly correct. JMAP is just a much more modern and efficient way to connect clients and servers to access E-mail.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#24

I really want to see some innovation in the email space. The landscape is like a sea of false promises and dashed dreams. SMTP is one of the bread-and-butters of the internet, yet it just doesn't seem to be moving forward (maybe that's for the best), and no one's building extensions on top of it. Maybe I'm naive in thinking it was possible but we could have avoided this whole "make an account on X messenger so we can…

Yes, postfix has been around for so long and it is very solid. However, to run a mail server nowadays, it still needs a lot of configuration work and even additional daemons to add SPF checks, forwarding with SRS, and DKIM signatures. All of this is possible to be added though, which speaks for the flexibility of the postfix design.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#25
post #12

The main failure in mail standards is a lack of explicit utf8 clean support lhs@rhs -if this got fixed (it's often called universal acceptance) a lot of things about mail as an ecology would improve. I have view on the spam thing. The whole "your idea will not work because" meme is hugely destructive of innovation in email. It sucks energy and mindshare. It's classic old timer put down. What would (imnsho opinion) ha…

> What would (imnsho opinion) have fixed spam is sender pays. I've debated this with a lot of people. We're 50/50 on it. Fifty agree with me, fifty million don't.

Along with the billions of spam SMS that are also supposed to be sender-pays, sadly

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#26
post #12

The main failure in mail standards is a lack of explicit utf8 clean support lhs@rhs -if this got fixed (it's often called universal acceptance) a lot of things about mail as an ecology would improve. I have view on the spam thing. The whole "your idea will not work because" meme is hugely destructive of innovation in email. It sucks energy and mindshare. It's classic old timer put down. What would (imnsho opinion) ha…

You could pay with computing power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#27

Very interesting: > JMAP is not designed around a persistent network socket, so it’s perfect for webmail clients that connect, do stuff, then disconnect This would allow implementing JMAP in serverless architecture, e.g. self hosting on AWS lambda. That should be very cheap and significantly lower the barrier to self hosting (not needing to manage a box, just providing aws credentials). Think of what it takes to trul…

The first problem is actually the more serious one, sadly.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#28
post #26
post #12

The main failure in mail standards is a lack of explicit utf8 clean support lhs@rhs -if this got fixed (it's often called universal acceptance) a lot of things about mail as an ecology would improve. I have view on the spam thing. The whole "your idea will not work because" meme is hugely destructive of innovation in email. It sucks energy and mindshare. It's classic old timer put down. What would (imnsho opinion) ha…

You could pay with computing power. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash

That's horrible for the environment.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#29

I recently thought about email being based on such an old standard and then I wondered if maybe it didn't matter anymore, because most of the web is moving to gmail, and my guess is (and somebody please correct me) that when I send an email from gmail to gmail, that no actual SMTP is involved? I'm assuming that they have some internal protocol that is just adapter'd to "Email" at the very end?

> most of the web is moving to gmail

This isn't true; there's a LOT of industry on Exchange of some sort, and plenty of older institutions running their own email. Especially in IETF land.

And it's a huge risk increase if everyone moves everything to gmail.

Re: JMAP: Like IMAP but Not Really

#30

I really want to see some innovation in the email space. The landscape is like a sea of false promises and dashed dreams. SMTP is one of the bread-and-butters of the internet, yet it just doesn't seem to be moving forward (maybe that's for the best), and no one's building extensions on top of it. Maybe I'm naive in thinking it was possible but we could have avoided this whole "make an account on X messenger so we can…

It was sometimes possible to hold realtime conversations over email, before the amount of required spam processing became too high. There's no protocol reason why you can't do that between servers, although getting it into a client requires either IMAP push or something more modern.

> make an account

You are required to make an account somewhere so your account can be banned if you spam, basically.

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