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German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

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Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#21

Post by Wowfunhappy »

yayr wrote: post #20
CamTin wrote: post #13

Maybe somebody can explain why this US-based project has to respond to German court rulings in any way. Is there any reason not to just toss any scare letters in the trash can or say "Jump off a bridge, we're not in Germany"?

https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html Q: So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? A: Yes, that was the original basis of the claim for jurisdiction, which the Court accepted in their judgement. Since then, there some more recent decisions in the European Court of Justice, and other German cou…

But what businesses does Project Gutenberg have in Germany? Not actively barring German visitors counts as doing business?

If I spin up a random web server in the United States which so happens to be connectable from German IP addresses, but I don't do any actual business in Germany and I've never been to Germany, shouldn't Germany have zero jurisdiction over me?

What if it was China or North Korea instead of Germany? I definitely don't want to follow their laws!

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#22

Post by CamTin »

yayr wrote: post #20
CamTin wrote: post #13

Maybe somebody can explain why this US-based project has to respond to German court rulings in any way. Is there any reason not to just toss any scare letters in the trash can or say "Jump off a bridge, we're not in Germany"?

https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html Q: So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? A: Yes, that was the original basis of the claim for jurisdiction, which the Court accepted in their judgement. Since then, there some more recent decisions in the European Court of Justice, and other German cou…

I understand that German courts claim to have jurisdiction, and have some kind of specious explanation for why that is. But why does the project have to entertain the fact that they do? What can a German court do to them?

Put another way, if I start sending you "decrees" written in crayon from "The Royal High Court of CamTin," there's no harm in ignoring them. It certainly seems overkill to hire highly-paid experts to represent you in front of my imaginary court. Why does it make sense here? Can the German judges issue rulings to e.g. arrest Gutenberg officers if they ever find themselves in the EU? That's the only thing I can think of that might compel them to even take it as seriously as they have.

Alternatively, they may just be good guys who are willing to fight this to establish some kind of legal precedent that will help others in the future. Perhaps it's a little bit of both.

As a non-lawyer, I'm not sure which is the case.

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#23

Post by detaro »

CamTin wrote: post #22
yayr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html Q: So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? A: Yes, that was the original basis of the claim for jurisdiction, which the Court accepted in their judgement. Since then, there some more recent decisions in the European Court of Justice, and other German cou…

I understand that German courts claim to have jurisdiction, and have some kind of specious explanation for why that is. But why does the project have to entertain the fact that they do? What can a German court do to them? Put another way, if I start sending you "decrees" written in crayon from "The Royal High Court of CamTin," there's no harm in ignoring them. It certainly seems overkill to hire highly-paid experts t…

They explain why they decided to follow the order on their info page too, no need to speculate.

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#24

Post by CamTin »

detaro wrote: post #23
CamTin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that German courts claim to have jurisdiction, and have some kind of specious explanation for why that is. But why does the project have to entertain the fact that they do? What can a German court do to them? Put another way, if I start sending you "decrees" written in crayon from "The Royal High Court of CamTin," there's no harm in ignoring them. It certainly seems overkill to hire highly-paid experts t…

They explain why they decided to follow the order on their info page too, no need to speculate.

I guess you're referring to this:

"The view of PGLAF is that it is up to the rights owner in Germany to identify people there who are infringing on its copyrights, and pursue remediation there. It is not up to PGLAF to police or defend the rights of entities in different countries. Because PGLAF operates as a legitimate non-profit organization, however, it is appropriate to act as the German Court ordered - pending appeal - even though it disagrees with the order."

This explains that they decided to comply because they are operating a "legitimate non-profit organization," which isn't a satisfying reason. Legitimate non-profits outside of Germany, with no business in Germany, which are 100% based in the US, and have received no orders from American courts should be happy to ignore foreign courts.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but even paying someone to translate a German court order, let alone paying German lawyers to represent you, would seem like a very generous thing to do in the face of "orders" from a court that can't punish you for noncompliance. If I received a German court order, I would throw it away as an obvious mistake, since there's no reason on Earth why I should need to read it.

In any case, the specific question I was curious about is not addressed in the page. If nobody else knows, then speculation probably isn't needed, but it's fun!

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#25

Post by ameliaquining »

renholder wrote: post #15
deogeo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The irony ist that it should be easy to get at least some of the books get blocked in the US as well. Not for copyright reasons, but because of the content. Can you elaborate? Because as far as I'm aware, thanks to the 1st amendment, not a single book is banned in the US. At most they're removed from public or school libraries.

Correct, it looks like censorship, rather than out-right banning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_... ...but it's not like the United States has never tried to ban books in the recent past. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook#Legalit...

That article lists four incidents that took place outside the U.S., plus one instance of what turns out to be the book's author arguing that its publisher should voluntarily stop printing it. No U.S. government censorship.

Obviously there've been cases in the U.S. that came closer to government censorship of literature than this, but in general it remains the case that it's nearly impossible to get a book banned in the U.S.

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#26

Post by yayr »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #21
yayr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html Q: So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? A: Yes, that was the original basis of the claim for jurisdiction, which the Court accepted in their judgement. Since then, there some more recent decisions in the European Court of Justice, and other German cou…

But what businesses does Project Gutenberg have in Germany? Not actively barring German visitors counts as doing business? If I spin up a random web server in the United States which so happens to be connectable from German IP addresses, but I don't do any actual business in Germany and I've never been to Germany, shouldn't Germany have zero jurisdiction over me? What if it was China or North Korea instead of Germany…

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/nz-court-rules-k...

again, one can like it or not, but the US practices similar court orders, even with magnitudes more impact on the responsible persons claimed to infringe the copyright

Re: German Addresses are Blocked: www.gutenberg.org

#27

Post by [deleted] »

yayr wrote: post #26
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what businesses does Project Gutenberg have in Germany? Not actively barring German visitors counts as doing business? If I spin up a random web server in the United States which so happens to be connectable from German IP addresses, but I don't do any actual business in Germany and I've never been to Germany, shouldn't Germany have zero jurisdiction over me? What if it was China or North Korea instead of Germany…

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/nz-court-rules-k... again, one can like it or not, but the US practices similar court orders, even with magnitudes more impact on the responsible persons claimed to infringe the copyright

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