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Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

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Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#21

Post by pbhjpbhj »

maxander wrote: post #4
jobigoud wrote: post #2

Is there speculation on what this would do to a healthy brain?

Probably more harm than good- you probably don’t want ultrasonic waves shaking your neurons around without a good reason. This sounds like a “kick a TV and it works again” sort of technology.

You might not need ultrasound though, eg https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02391-6.

I can't find the link now, on mobile, but I found reference to using low frequency sound/light and that (anecdotally) individuals had tried this with their Alzheimer suffering relatives and had great success, like miraculous recovery of memory.

I wonder if there is a natural occupational exposure (CRT TV?) that could give evidence here, like if fewer people long-term exposed to low frequency sound/light get Alz?

Related: prenatal ultrasound could be significantly damaging, https://www.pnas.org/content/103/34/12903.full.

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#22

Post by emiliobumachar »

JamesBarney wrote: post #11
maxander wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably more harm than good- you probably don’t want ultrasonic waves shaking your neurons around without a good reason. This sounds like a “kick a TV and it works again” sort of technology.

I don't think this is a kick the TV type of technology. It's causing the microglia to activate, and I doubt it's causing any neuroinjury. Because the last people you want to injure are people with Alzheimer's.

Many treatments of severe conditions do substantial harm, which is considered acceptable for the benefits.

Extreme examples are chemotherapy, i.e. giving poison to cancer patients, and radiotherapy, i.e. irradiating them. The healthy cells can take it, the cancer cells not so much. Statistically.

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#23

Post by kup0 »

olliej wrote: post #14

Ok so the article says this successfully destroys the amyloid plaques, but does it help cognition or slow the disease? Specifically for “slowing” it seems entirely plausible that breaking up the plaques will allow misfolded proteins to migrate (due to reduced size). Ignoring entirely the there have been multiple drugs that successfully reduced amyloid build up, with no actual benefit. Eg they did exactly what they we…

The information around Alzheimers seems to be heading the direction that the beta-amyloid plaques are an immune response to the HSV1 herpes virus that help prevent the spread of the virus.[1]

I suppose it can't be ruled out yet that this immune response could still cause damage, but it does make me wonder if the plaques are actually responsible at all for the symptoms seen, since like you said, other drugs reduce the plaques with no improvement in symptoms.

It's interesting that this treatment seems to work when others do not- when they seem to be accomplishing the same thing (reduction of beta-amyloid plaques)

[1] http://www.virology.ws/2018/11/08/herpes-simplex-virus-and-a...

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#24

Post by ethbro »

zmmmmm wrote: post #16
rf15 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you thinking of specifically? I mean genetically and functionally we are incredibly similar as mammals. Most poisons/etc. work the same for example.

I'm completely speculating, but I think when your lifespan is only 2 years anyway, you have almost no selective pressure for things like the kinds of diseases of aging that humans are now battling. So there are all kinds of things like cancer and dementia that mice's systems are much more naive to, and hence they are tend to get sick from "simple", easily treatable versions of these diseases. Meanwhile humans have ev…

It's partly because of a more complex version of that, partly because of evolutionary drift.

Mammals can still be incredibly distinct when you get down to specific biological pathway behavior. Or they can be exactly the same. Depends on how the mutation dice came up.

For example, the different ways various mammal species metabolize theobromine [1] (aka, the "dangerous" thing in chocolate).

Dogs and humans are similarly allergic, but because we metabolize it differently it's eliminated from our bodies much more quickly, which keeps it from building up to dangerous levels.

As my dad (vet / path / drug development) would say, 'Mother Nature is lazy before anything else. She'd rather repurpose an already evolved system than create something new in almost every circumstance.'

Multiply that by ~95 million years (last common dog-human ancestor), and you get a lot of quirky genetic code debt. ;)

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6144479/

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#26

Post by WhompingWindows »

kup0 wrote: post #23
olliej wrote: post #14

Ok so the article says this successfully destroys the amyloid plaques, but does it help cognition or slow the disease? Specifically for “slowing” it seems entirely plausible that breaking up the plaques will allow misfolded proteins to migrate (due to reduced size). Ignoring entirely the there have been multiple drugs that successfully reduced amyloid build up, with no actual benefit. Eg they did exactly what they we…

The information around Alzheimers seems to be heading the direction that the beta-amyloid plaques are an immune response to the HSV1 herpes virus that help prevent the spread of the virus.[1] I suppose it can't be ruled out yet that this immune response could still cause damage, but it does make me wonder if the plaques are actually responsible at all for the symptoms seen, since like you said, other drugs reduce the…

Your claim is far too strong, that is merely one theory, evidenced by a posted link from/by/for virologists. There is not a field-wide consensus to support that by any stretch.

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#27

Post by WhompingWindows »

olliej wrote: post #14

Ok so the article says this successfully destroys the amyloid plaques, but does it help cognition or slow the disease? Specifically for “slowing” it seems entirely plausible that breaking up the plaques will allow misfolded proteins to migrate (due to reduced size). Ignoring entirely the there have been multiple drugs that successfully reduced amyloid build up, with no actual benefit. Eg they did exactly what they we…

There's a theory on beta amyloid that it's merely the by-product of other causative agents, and that as a surrogate end-point for Alzheimer's outcomes, it's not nearly as useful as symptom reduction, as you state. My professor who studied AD and dementia likened beta-amyloid to the garbage leftover in a stadium or outdoor concert: you know something went down, this leftover trash isn't great, but hard to determine what actually did occur just based on beta-amyloid.

Of course, the AD research field is still divided and there are many competing theories. Solving AD and dementia is one of the greatest challenges in modern science.

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#28

Post by kup0 »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #26
kup0 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The information around Alzheimers seems to be heading the direction that the beta-amyloid plaques are an immune response to the HSV1 herpes virus that help prevent the spread of the virus.[1] I suppose it can't be ruled out yet that this immune response could still cause damage, but it does make me wonder if the plaques are actually responsible at all for the symptoms seen, since like you said, other drugs reduce the…

Your claim is far too strong, that is merely one theory, evidenced by a posted link from/by/for virologists. There is not a field-wide consensus to support that by any stretch.

I don't think I made any strong claims myself? I guess "Seems to be heading the direction" implied too much of a consensus? The fact that antiviral drugs helped- does seem to lend a good amount of credence to the theory though?

I've just seen the theory come up a number of times, from a number of locations, in the past few months, so that gave me an impression that it was gaining ground.

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#29

Post by vorpalhex »

maxander wrote: post #4
jobigoud wrote: post #2

Is there speculation on what this would do to a healthy brain?

Probably more harm than good- you probably don’t want ultrasonic waves shaking your neurons around without a good reason. This sounds like a “kick a TV and it works again” sort of technology.

Mental percussive maintenance?

Re: Breakthrough ultrasound treatment to reverse dementia moves to human trials

#30

Post by mannykannot »

zmmmmm wrote: post #16
rf15 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you thinking of specifically? I mean genetically and functionally we are incredibly similar as mammals. Most poisons/etc. work the same for example.

I'm completely speculating, but I think when your lifespan is only 2 years anyway, you have almost no selective pressure for things like the kinds of diseases of aging that humans are now battling. So there are all kinds of things like cancer and dementia that mice's systems are much more naive to, and hence they are tend to get sick from "simple", easily treatable versions of these diseases. Meanwhile humans have ev…

There's some evolutionary pressure in the form the selective breeding of animal models of human disease; it just has not been very successful for Alzheimer's. I guess you have to start with what nature gives.
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