Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

interactive.fusion.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 52 posts

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#21

Post by austincheney »

UncleEntity wrote: post #13
austincheney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. Those are really biological issues. If they were to make tobacco illegal tomorrow that also wouldn't solve for demand or addiction but would merely make it vastly more inconvenient for people to get their nicotine fix. But, as they've doing for (at least) the last 40+ years, if they try to get people to either not start or stop on thei…

I am not advocating for criminalization.

Demand for tobacco id down specifically because there is ample activity and messaging to influence people away from interest in tobacco. If this same level of influence were applied for all drugs people would be generally much healthier.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#22

Post by FatDrunknStupid »

austincheney wrote: post #18
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked for Portugal - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

Yes, it did work for Portugal. Portugal does not have the pharmaceutical industry that the US does. Due to criminalization of certain drugs and the extreme enforcement thereof demand for legally available drugs has never been higher in the US. The pharmaceutical industry is more than happy to fill that gap and meet the economic demand. By ignoring the data and eliminating access to controlled substances demand has no…

Wait what? You are your own devils advocate.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#23

Post by FatDrunknStupid »

austincheney wrote: post #20
circlefavshape wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 Some substances are psychoactive, and can be pleasurable to take. That's at the root of the demand, and can't ever really be "solved"

Education and behavior are always solvable problems. Denial of such opens people to manipulation and opportunity loss.

Some people don't need the drugs. You're clearly delusional. Good luck my friend.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#24

Post by matwood »

jpatokal wrote: post #6
pietroglyph wrote: post #2

> Then came the 1970s and the drug war. “Oh my goodness, now I have a business,” he thought. This guy is pretty interesting (and it's disappointing that he didn't do something more constructive with his skills), but this quote stood out the most to me. If you start limiting supply but not curtailing demand (e.g. a drug war), it makes it a lot more profitable to sell. And all that money makes it a lot easier for the s…

And a drug war also encourages manufacturing and selling drugs that are as potent as possible, like fentanyl. The same happened with Prohibition: the underground market was all hard liquor, not beer.

Also, once someone is on the wrong side of the law it becomes easier to rationalize (or safer as there is no one they can turn to) breaking other laws. Human trafficking and guns use the same routes established and initially funded by the drug trade.

EDIT:

This also occurs at the street level. I've read stories of people not wanting to talk to the police about a murder because they are afraid the police will find some weed and arrest them instead.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#26

Post by xienze »

Nursie wrote: post #15
austincheney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. In the past several years legally available drugs have been the most abused and resulted in significant problems. I am not claiming this as a justification for increased enforcement either. If you aren't solving for demand you either aren't taking the problem seriously or you have anterior motives to ending drug abuse.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. It solves the problem of peoples lives being (further) ruined by punitive policy. It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

> It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

There are numerous recovery clinics in the US. I’m not aware of any of them having a policy of reporting their patients to the police. What would they even be arrested for? Having been high in the past?

Fear of criminal penalties isn’t a barrier to recovery in the US. I’m not sure where you got this impression.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#27

Post by quetzthecoatl »

austincheney wrote: post #18
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked for Portugal - https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...

Yes, it did work for Portugal. Portugal does not have the pharmaceutical industry that the US does. Due to criminalization of certain drugs and the extreme enforcement thereof demand for legally available drugs has never been higher in the US. The pharmaceutical industry is more than happy to fill that gap and meet the economic demand. By ignoring the data and eliminating access to controlled substances demand has no…

The argument is that people are going for legal more potent, more dangerous drugs in US because much harmless marijuana is illegal (Just as when alcohol was prohibited people switched from wine and beer to moonshine). This is true everywhere including US. Not just Portugal. So when relatively harmless recreational drugs are decriminalized, people won't go for fentanyl or oxy.

Then of course we have the moral argument. The addicts are an extremely at risk, isolated, poor community. They can't seek help as their very existence is illegal (they consume illegal drugs). If drugs were legal, they could seek help without fear or stigma, others could help them without fearing breaking law, NGOs could legally operate in this domain helping them (with disposable needles, safe usage etc.. not just in rehabilitation). All this is true for US. Not just Portugal.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#28

Post by Nursie »

xienze wrote: post #26
Nursie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. It solves the problem of peoples lives being (further) ruined by punitive policy. It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

> It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction. There are numerous recovery clinics in the US. I’m not aware of any of them having a policy of reporting their patients to the police. What would they even be arrested for? Having been high in the past? Fear of criminal penalties isn’t a barrier to recovery in the US. I’m not sure where you got this impression.

I'm not in the US, but it's a barrier everywhere AFAICT.

It's an admission of past criminal behaviour and potential future criminal behaviour. People who are addicted are very likely to be in possession for fear of getting withdrawals as much as anything else.

It seems as though Portugal has had a lot of success with its approach.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#29

Post by cf141q5325 »

matwood wrote: post #24
jpatokal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a drug war also encourages manufacturing and selling drugs that are as potent as possible, like fentanyl. The same happened with Prohibition: the underground market was all hard liquor, not beer.

Also, once someone is on the wrong side of the law it becomes easier to rationalize (or safer as there is no one they can turn to) breaking other laws. Human trafficking and guns use the same routes established and initially funded by the drug trade. EDIT: This also occurs at the street level. I've read stories of people not wanting to talk to the police about a murder because they are afraid the police will find som…

>This also occurs at the street level. I've read stories of people not wanting to talk to the police about a murder because they are afraid the police will find some weed and arrest them instead.

Sadly a common example is the question whether to call 911 in case of domestic violence for the same reason.

Re: The Walter White of Wichita (2016)

#30

Post by Nursie »

austincheney wrote: post #19
Nursie wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far legalization has not proven to solve the problems of demand or addiction. It solves the problem of peoples lives being (further) ruined by punitive policy. It opens up the possibility of seeking help without risking criminal conviction.

I was pretty clear that I am not advocating for criminalization.

But you said that legalisation hasn't tackled addiction. So far I'm not aware of anywhere that the majorly addictive drugs (heroin, cocaine) have been legalised. Portugal has made inroads into its addiction problem with its decriminalisation program.
Post reply on HN