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Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

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Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a beautiful device, and for some reason I could watch Mr. Clickspring file brass for hours. Most of the device is clockwork – gears and bearings, so… physical manifestations of multiplication and division. But… The first couple of minutes of Episode 9 amaze me. There is a section where two gears with slightly offset axis are joined with a pin and slot to approximate the nonlinear angular movement of the moon cau…

Every advanced ancient civilization had astronomical observatories and political leaders routinely relied upon personnel at these facilities for information about when to plant and harvest crops. If your livelihood depends on this sort of thing, there may be an incentive to invest in improving instruments and models. The artifacts that we have found represent a small fraction of what these people produced and used. A…

[deleted]

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a beautiful device, and for some reason I could watch Mr. Clickspring file brass for hours. Most of the device is clockwork – gears and bearings, so… physical manifestations of multiplication and division. But… The first couple of minutes of Episode 9 amaze me. There is a section where two gears with slightly offset axis are joined with a pin and slot to approximate the nonlinear angular movement of the moon cau…

Every advanced ancient civilization had astronomical observatories and political leaders routinely relied upon personnel at these facilities for information about when to plant and harvest crops. If your livelihood depends on this sort of thing, there may be an incentive to invest in improving instruments and models. The artifacts that we have found represent a small fraction of what these people produced and used. A…

Electron microscopes already exist today. It's impossible to predict what advances in microscopic imaging might be made in the next 3000 years, but if we assume they at least don't regress, I think there's a fair chance that a dug-up integrated circuit could be recreated in software based on an image of the die.

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#23
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a beautiful device, and for some reason I could watch Mr. Clickspring file brass for hours. Most of the device is clockwork – gears and bearings, so… physical manifestations of multiplication and division. But… The first couple of minutes of Episode 9 amaze me. There is a section where two gears with slightly offset axis are joined with a pin and slot to approximate the nonlinear angular movement of the moon cau…

Every advanced ancient civilization had astronomical observatories and political leaders routinely relied upon personnel at these facilities for information about when to plant and harvest crops. If your livelihood depends on this sort of thing, there may be an incentive to invest in improving instruments and models. The artifacts that we have found represent a small fraction of what these people produced and used. A…

The problem is not that we don't have more of these devices but rather that little written remains of them. It's as if references to them were systematically destroyed. Mind you, we wouldn't even know about the Antikythera mechanism where it not for its accidental discovery.

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#24
post #6
post #3

YouTube channel of a guy recreating the mechanism: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZioPDnFPNsHnyxfygxA0...

It's a beautiful device, and for some reason I could watch Mr. Clickspring file brass for hours. Most of the device is clockwork – gears and bearings, so… physical manifestations of multiplication and division. But… The first couple of minutes of Episode 9 amaze me. There is a section where two gears with slightly offset axis are joined with a pin and slot to approximate the nonlinear angular movement of the moon cau…

The modelling for the movement was simple: The Moon rotated on a cycle, whose center was itself rotating on a cycle centered at Earth (see [2] from [1],) but the part of the antikythera mechanism that was devised to simulate this was purely brilliant!

[1] https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/BeforeCopernicus.html

[2] https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/Epicycle.png

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#25
I think there was a lost book by Archimedes that may have been about constructing these, called "on sphere-making"

It mentioned the archimedes sphere in the story

"Rehm suggested that it might possibly be the legendary Sphere of Archimedes, which Cicero had described in the first century B.C. as a kind of mechanical planetarium, capable of reproducing the movement of the sun, the moon, and the five planets that could be seen from Earth without a telescope—"

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#26
A few years back I had started outlining an alternative history scifi story with the premise being that both the technology and the civilization behind the Antikythera Mechanism was not lost but continued to progress up until today. Sort of like William Gibson's "The Difference engine" but with a 2000 year head start towards the singularity.

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#27
What’s really interesting for me and something I haven’t been able to find good literature on - is how the civilization seems to severely regress into the dark ages after the ancient times.

While Rome fell, Byzantium continued on. The state even continued to refer to themselves as Roman.

Certain construction items change and have good explanation, such as the Roman concrete - it’s volcanic components were no longer accessible to Byzantine builders, so the use became impractical.

But how did we manage to lose the knowledge behind the Antikythera device and why was it not recorded?

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#28

When I think of a computer, the first thing that pops up in my mind is whether the Antikythera computer is Turing complete? The article makes no mention of this. To give it a title as the first computing device, I think there should be some analysis of operations that it can perform and whether they can constitute as a universal turing machine. Otherwise, we can call stones as computers. They can do addition and subt…

As others have pointed out, it is certainly not turing complete. The spectacular technical achievement of the antikythera mechanism, apart from its overall complexity, is the presence of differential gearing. Specifically, a differential turntable allows it to add or subtract angular velocities: you subtract the effect of the suns movement from the lunar movement to compute the lunar cycle.

PS Gears and cog wheels were only invented a century or two before the antikythera mechanism; scientific progress during the Hellenistic era was very rapid! Then the decline after the roman conquest was quite rapid as well - by the imperial period (eg Heron's writings) techniques like differential gears had already been lost, and they wouldn't be reinvented till (i think?) the 18th century!

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#29

What’s really interesting for me and something I haven’t been able to find good literature on - is how the civilization seems to severely regress into the dark ages after the ancient times. While Rome fell, Byzantium continued on. The state even continued to refer to themselves as Roman. Certain construction items change and have good explanation, such as the Roman concrete - it’s volcanic components were no longer a…

Rome itself was partly/largely to blame - the idea of a unified greco-roman culture is a myth. When thinking about ancient science and technology, its useful to divide antiquity into three periods:

the classical greek period 600-350 bce

the Hellenistic Greek period 350 - 150 bce

the 'imperial' period 150 bce - whenever ce

Virtually all of the great scientific and technical achievements of antiquity were from the Hellenistic Greek society - the society of euclid, eratosthenes, archimedes, ctesibius, hipparchus, chrysippus, herophilus, supported by the Ptolemies in north Africa.

All this scientific work came to an abrupt end around 150bce due to the roman conquests, and the political atmosphere they created. Carthage (itself a cosmopolitan center of learning with close ties to the greek world) was not he only north african city razed to its foundations by Rome. Its easier to list the survivors: (1) Alexandria and (2) Rhodes. This completes the list. And the academics didn't survive: in 145bce Ptolemy VIII persecuted the city's greek elite so all the intellectuals fled, and the romans made a hobby of enslaving greek intellectuals, to have them work as copyists and teach their children to read.

Thus in a very short span of time, virtually all of the physical books were destroyed when the cities were destroyed, and the intellectual culture that understood the ideas was eliminated. There was a partial renaissance during the Pax Romana (ptolemy, galen, etc), but the understanding of the science was much more primitive and quickly faded with no state and cultural support.

As for technology - roman engineering was typically less advanced than greek engineering, and for technically difficult things the latin writing are both crude and wrong: their scientific engineering was done by importing engineers from the east. The antikythera mechanism (late 2nd century bce) is a good example of the decline: there is nothing of comparable mechanical complexity from the roman period, neither in archeology or in Heron.

See Russo[1] for very readable up to date academic scholarship on this kind of thing.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Revolution-Science-Born-Reb...

Re: Was the Antikythera Mechanism the world’s first computer? (2007)

#30

What’s really interesting for me and something I haven’t been able to find good literature on - is how the civilization seems to severely regress into the dark ages after the ancient times. While Rome fell, Byzantium continued on. The state even continued to refer to themselves as Roman. Certain construction items change and have good explanation, such as the Roman concrete - it’s volcanic components were no longer a…

Biomaterial Books have to copied to survive the centuries. First the knowledge has to be written down, which was not the uniform practice in pre-scientific craft guilds. Second it has to be deemed significant enough to be worth expensive paper and hand-copying. Certain classical texts were deemed significant by Christian monks and Arab scholars to preserve by copying. But many were not.
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