Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#21

Post by pc86 » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

dexen wrote: post #9

tareqak wrote: post #8

I don't know why nbp234's comment with the link to Bruce Schneier's blog is dead, but I think it is pretty valuable, so I'll post it again: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/11/propaganda_an...

Meta: if a post is dead due to flagging / banning, but you find it valuable, you can "vouch" for it. With several (perhaps one?) users vouching, the post is back from dead. Click on the "30 minutes ago" link next to a dead post's author name to view this individual post, and now a "vouch" link should be available. Click it to perform vouching , done. This function not available for some users, depending on karma thre…

I've never vouched for a post and had it not come back so I think when the account is shadow-banned at least it only takes one vote. I also very rarely vouch for it's possible there are additional factors at play.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#22

Post by liftbigweights » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #4

Ya, i've been saying something like this for a while. China, for instance, is uniquely in vulnerable to this sort of attack. Because the state is already in charge of censoring information, it is much more difficult to flood them with misinformation. It's one of the many reasons i'm concerned that models like Chinas will actually flourish more than they otherwise would in the coming years.

> It's one of the many reasons i'm concerned that models like Chinas will actually flourish more than they otherwise would in the coming years.

That's why the soviets won the cold war? From the british empire to the nazis to the soviets to cuba to even north korea today, the state controlled and censored information and they all failed or are going to fail. The US, with all our misinformation, is still going strong.

Also, china has succumbed to misinformation a few times in the past 200 years. The US is more or less "vaccinated" from misinformation because we deal with it everyday. China, with its sterilize propaganda environment, is highly susceptible to misinformation and no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to completely keep misinformation at bay.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#23

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:16 PM UTC

zyxzevn wrote: post #18

I disagree, but I see the problems totally different. That is because I don't see the US as a democracy but as an oligarchy. The whole problem with US implementation of democracy is that the actors are centralized around a system that encourages corruption. The corruption is due to the power and money that is governing politics. And this again causes secrecy to hide the differences between the advertised politics and…

[deleted]

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#24

Post by deogeo » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:17 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #6

Democracy is doomed, but not because of advanced attacks. Autocracy/nationalism/monarchy/etc are just the natural order of human societies. We've had a good run, but so did the Greeks and Romans.

Isn't nationalism orthogonal to democracy? How are they opposed?

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#25

Post by rrggrr » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power.

My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple sources of information; (b) consider the perspective/bias of the story-teller in the sources you consume; and (c) understand that most messages are persuasion.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#26

Post by posterboy » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #12

We are strongly concerned with accuracy (correctness, completeness, consistency) on the network layers but I've been thinking that we need to apply the same emphasis to accuracy on the data layer. We'd never accept the data layer's error rate on the network layer. Another way of looking at it: We do emphasize accuracy in data in business databases - again, we'd never accept the error rate common in 'general' informat…

We totally do, that's why most peoples opinion is irrelevant, and voting a rather limited direct influence, not to say useless.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#27

Post by pbadg3r » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

zyxzevn wrote: post #18

I disagree, but I see the problems totally different. That is because I don't see the US as a democracy but as an oligarchy. The whole problem with US implementation of democracy is that the actors are centralized around a system that encourages corruption. The corruption is due to the power and money that is governing politics. And this again causes secrecy to hide the differences between the advertised politics and…

So encouraging to see people promoting represent.us here!! Thank you!

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#28

Post by zackmorris » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#29

Post by dbt00 » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #6

Democracy is doomed, but not because of advanced attacks. Autocracy/nationalism/monarchy/etc are just the natural order of human societies. We've had a good run, but so did the Greeks and Romans.

The natural state of humans is dead. Anything else is temporary.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#30

Post by robinsloan » Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #12

We are strongly concerned with accuracy (correctness, completeness, consistency) on the network layers but I've been thinking that we need to apply the same emphasis to accuracy on the data layer. We'd never accept the data layer's error rate on the network layer. Another way of looking at it: We do emphasize accuracy in data in business databases - again, we'd never accept the error rate common in 'general' informat…

I think it depends on which "we" you're talking about! In many cases, "we" do value accurate information. I'm thinking not just of high-quality news organizations, but fact-checking sites like Snopes or Politifact -- both real treasures, in my opinion. However, if you cite either On The Internet, you'll often receive the response: "Pshh please. [Fact-checking site] is totally biased." This response is, in my opinion, (a) wrong, and (b) very often offered in bad faith -- an example of the very tactic discussed in the paper linked above -- but those features don't prevent it from short-circuiting the "error correction" you're seeking.

So, if enterprises like Snopes and Politifact don't work... how DO you establish some kind of shared understanding of the world for a very broad "we"? It's really frustrating!