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Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

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Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#21

Post by sy7ar »

chongli wrote: post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

I get what you mean and I agree to most of your points. I just want to point out that memorizing something you don’t use often is not completely useless. Some valuable creativity only happens when you connect some obscure and unrelated facts together, or some specific details from another field with what you’re currently working on.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#22

Post by hpbd »

chongli wrote: post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option?

I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#24

Post by jszymborski »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #15

I'm a bit surprised these systems still pay off for people. How many contexts require learning large bodies of unrelated facts, these days? Everything's just a google away. Even in the past, the only context where I would have used a system like this is language acquisition, and it's pretty clear that machine translation is going to surpass me very soon, if it hasn't already. For me, most interesting work involves co…

Unfortunately, high schools and university courses can rely on this sort of memorization quite heavily as a proxy for "understanding". My biochemistry courses, particularly early on, were at least 60% memorization, 40% conceptual/logical reasoning.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#25

Post by chongli »

hpbd wrote: post #22
chongli wrote: post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option? I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

English is my first language. I didn't use Anki to learn English vocabulary. I learned by reading books and talking about them to people.

For language learning, I'm skeptical of any method that doesn't resemble real-world use.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#26

Post by hpbd »

chongli wrote: post #25
hpbd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option? I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

English is my first language. I didn't use Anki to learn English vocabulary. I learned by reading books and talking about them to people. For language learning, I'm skeptical of any method that doesn't resemble real-world use.

So I should find very basic books? Because for me newspapers or even my mobile phone's interface are unintelligible.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#27

Post by chongli »

hpbd wrote: post #26
chongli wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is my first language. I didn't use Anki to learn English vocabulary. I learned by reading books and talking about them to people. For language learning, I'm skeptical of any method that doesn't resemble real-world use.

So I should find very basic books? Because for me newspapers or even my mobile phone's interface are unintelligible.

Start with basic books but try to move up quickly to more challenging material. I read through Lord of the Rings in second grade. It was slow and frustrating at times, but the fact that the book is so engaging helped a lot. I learned so much vocabulary in such a short time this way.

Don't be afraid to keep a hard-copy dictionary of the language you're studying handy.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#28

Post by nanofortnight »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #15

I'm a bit surprised these systems still pay off for people. How many contexts require learning large bodies of unrelated facts, these days? Everything's just a google away. Even in the past, the only context where I would have used a system like this is language acquisition, and it's pretty clear that machine translation is going to surpass me very soon, if it hasn't already. For me, most interesting work involves co…

Medicine is a field I'm in where learning large bodies of unrelated facts is helpful, since it's a field where having a generalist's shallow understanding of a wide variety of fields is useful.

Take biochemistry, for example, wherein one can see it as a series of mechanisms and is mostly memory work. Anatomy is similarly mostly memory work; one doesn't simply "reproduce" an understanding of the course of the vagus nerve from scratch.

Not every field is maths or physics.

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#29

Post by scarejunba »

chongli wrote: post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

What second languages have you applied this technique to and how many hours of learning did it take for you to approach reading ability, conversational ability, reading/writing fluency, conversational fluency?

Re: Whether to Use Anki or SuperMemo

#30

Post by andai »

hpbd wrote: post #22
chongli wrote: post #11

I'm really skeptical of these sorts of memorization systems, not because I think they don't work (I think they do), but because I see it as a brain "hack" that goes against the grain. What do I mean by this? I think of our memories as a kind of most-frequently-used (MFU) cache. We remember best when we use the information all the time. So when we use this sort of spaced repetition we're trying to artificially "warm u…

I want to learn a language but I don't think I'll be using it with anybody anytime soon. But I'd be happy to understand a newspaper or Wikipedia. What would be the recommended way to learn vocabulary if Anki is not an option? I've been using Duolingo but it really feels like a glorified Anki

Content! Find video (movies, series), audio (-books, radio, podcasts).

The best way is to get exposed to the language as much as possible (some people prefer humans for this, some people prefer multimedia), and then you can use Anki on the side.

For example, I'm recently watching Fullmetal Alchemist in Japanese. I don't speak Japanese, but I've picked up 50 or so phrases. Sometimes I get a phrase stuck in my head without knowing what it means, or I'll wonder how to say something (that I know I've heard but forgot), and later that day my brain will dig up the answer from the depths (essentially a much longer version of the 'active recall' that Anki uses).

I'm a big fan of the Input Hypothesis (Stephen Krashen) which says the best way to learn a language is "input before output", in other words, immerse yourself in the language for a long period (say, 6-12 months) before trying to produce output (writing or speaking).

In this way, by the time you speak or write, you will know what it sounds like, how the grammar works, and will be able to self-correct, rather than forming bad habits.

We all know people who've lived in a country for decades and their grammar & pronunciation is awful despite constant use. The argument here is that they were forced to produce output (speak) before they were ready (got enough input to develop a workable model of the language), and were not corrected, typically out of politeness.

The key point is that the brain does this modeling on its own, given the input. Explicit learning (eg. Anki) is unnecessary, but it does "cement" knowledge and accelerates things.

If you'd like to read more on this, AJATT (All Japanese All the Time) is a great blog (a bit rambly though) on this method and also goes into spaced repetition quite a bit.

"You don't learn a language, you get used to it."

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/

On the other end of the spectrum you have the exact opposite approach, traveling and going out to pubs and speaking the language from day 1: Benny Lewis, Fluent in 3 Months

https://www.fluentin3months.com/

It's basically introvert versus extrovert.

They disagree on whether output comes first or last, but they agree that you want to get as much input as possible.

Happy hacking :)

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