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U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

reuters.com

21–30 of 258 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but don't they? i think a more apt analogy would be your trash can manufacturer having a monopoly on trash bags. You shouldn't really expect that to be the case at all.

Why is that more apt? Why shouldn’t I expect it? Apple didn’t even invent the walled-garden digital software store; Microsoft was using it on the X-Box in 2005. If you go back to before digital distribution, Sony and Nintendo had total authority over third-party software releases for their platforms since the 90s and 80s respectively. I understand the free-software arguments for why I should be able to run arbitrary…

> Why shouldn’t I expect it?

Why should I, as a consumer? I don't understand this argument from Apple apologists.

> Apple didn’t even invent the walled-garden digital software store; Microsoft was using it on the X-Box in 2005.

So if it wasn't called out then, it should never be called out ever?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#22
post #6

Isn't the premise of this case, that Apple's "monopoly" on the app store and 30% toll on developers is effectively jacking up app prices for consumers, pretty hard to support with evidence? My impression is that the modern app store coincides with (if it didn't actually cause , which is possible as well) an industry-historic decline in software prices for consumers. Things we pay $0.99 today for used to cost $50.

$0.99 or free with all the important features a $19.99 in app purchase each.

The is a consumer choice - look at literally every new product announcement that comes with a >4.99 price tag. Basically you get people saying it’s unreasonable because making a copy of an app costs nothing. Because heaven forbid they give any value to the time required to design and create a piece of software.

It’s often followed up by claims that they could do it thenselves for much less in much less time, ignoring the realization that that is only possible because the original developer has done all the hard engineering and design work, and worked out how to make things fun, etc. (my most obvious memory of this was when Threes came out and it was instantly cloned by people who had full access to the game design)

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#23
post #2

> Developers “cannot risk the possibility of Apple removing them from the App Store if they bring suit,” the American Antitrust Institute advocacy group said in a brief. To my untrained IANAL eyes, this seems to be the meat of the argument. Apple is trying to say they are just an agent facilitating a sale, all the while jingling the kingdom keys in their back pocket by controlling who gets to sell. They are seeking t…

(Not a lawyer, so no idea if this is still controlling case law)

The full reasoning chain seems to be that Hanover Shoe v United Shoe Machinery Corp (1968), in which the issue was USMC's leasing but refusal to sell machinery on which they had a monopoly, decided that being able to "pass along costs" was not a valid defense by a monopoly when sued by its direct customers.

Consequently, in Illinois Brick v Illinois (1977) the court decided that if a monopoly cannot use "they can pass along costs" as a defense from damages, then it follows that indirect purchasers (ie customers of customers) cannot use same offensively to sue a monopoly.

The intent is to prevent the complexity of calculating damages-once-removed, and putting the onus on the (simpler) damage calculation between direct monopoly and immediate customer.

If the Court upholds the prior decision, the plaintiffs will be denied standing. In that case, the appropriate legal challenge would either be an app seller suing Apple, or a customer suing an app seller (who could likely sue Apple in response).

If this is still case law, the only way I see this going another way is if the Court sees Apple's flat-30% as fundamentally different (and simpler) than the previously considered costs.

[1] Hanover Shoe, Inc. v. United Shoe Machinery Corp., 392 U.S. 481 (1968) https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/392/481/

[2] Illinois Brick Co. v. Illinois, 431 U.S. 720 (1977) https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/431/720/

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#24
Not being American, this is the one thing I wish Trump/GOP/conservatives did in the US: bust the tech trusts. They're taking the courts, they can surely find state or federal attorneys to bring the cases, and the executive would provide them with cover and enforcement.

I'm surprised they haven't done it already. It would make sense for purely partisan reasons because tech companies are very liberal and extremely hostile to Trump's administration. But they could even reach across the aisle with megacorps like Amazon pretty clearly abusing their lower level employees which has been a cause on the left for decades.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#25

Here’s what I don’t get: in what sense is this a monopoly? Consumers have knowledge that the App Store is the only game in town on an iPhone, and they have the option to buy a different phone if they don’t want to use the App Store. That’s like saying that the manufacturer of my vacuum has a monopoly on vacuum bags.

Your vacuum manufacturer probably has a monopoly on vacuum bags for it's machine because it's niche enough for nobody else to care about making alternative bags. If someone decided that they wanted to, they could.

This isn't the case with the iPhone. It isn't niche and plenty of people want to build and be listed in alternatives, but they are prevented from doing so.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#26
post #4

I don't understand why Apple isn't getting slapped for only allowing Safari-based browsers in the App Store. I don't understand anti-trust laws that well, but didn't Microsoft settle out of a very similar case related to bundling Media Player and IE with Windows?

I just downloaded Firefox and Chrome from App Store. Do I miss something?

They are skins around Safari. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_for_iOS

> Unlike Firefox on Android, Firefox for iOS does not support browser add-ons. Additionally, it uses Apple's Webkit rendering engine, rather than Mozilla's Gecko. Both of these limitations are in accordance with Apple's rules for submitting apps to the App Store.

Search for safari, webkit or WKWebView in https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/firefox-ios and you'll see how the integration goes.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#27
post #6

Isn't the premise of this case, that Apple's "monopoly" on the app store and 30% toll on developers is effectively jacking up app prices for consumers, pretty hard to support with evidence? My impression is that the modern app store coincides with (if it didn't actually cause , which is possible as well) an industry-historic decline in software prices for consumers. Things we pay $0.99 today for used to cost $50.

> Things we pay $0.99 today for used to cost $50.

It's interesting because I imagine that'll be Apple's argument, and the natural counter-argument is that the $0.99 price is deceptive because of the "freemium" model of most apps.

Not sure how convincing they can make that argument, but it'll be interesting nonetheless. I imagine it'll involve putting an average "cost-per-app" including in-app purchases.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#28
post #24

Not being American, this is the one thing I wish Trump/GOP/conservatives did in the US: bust the tech trusts. They're taking the courts, they can surely find state or federal attorneys to bring the cases, and the executive would provide them with cover and enforcement. I'm surprised they haven't done it already. It would make sense for purely partisan reasons because tech companies are very liberal and extremely host…

You're being downvoted but I agree with you even if it's slightly hypocritical coming from the Trump administration

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#29
Unfortunately for Apple, I do think the App Store being an exclusive and default way to purchase and load apps on iOS is in fact causing prices of Apps, in many cases, to be higher than they should be.

The perfect example of this is the subscription services, right now you can get a cheaper subscription to a service such as Spotify if you buy it off the App Store. That is a prime example of how much the 30% payment to Apple is hurting developers and ultimately consumers... Apple is so upset about this they won’t let developers like Spotify link to buying the subscription on their own website anywhere on the app that is sold through their App Store, if that’s not Monopoly abuse I don’t know what is.

As much as I love Apples products I do feel that they have gotten away with a lot here, especially since there is zero other ways to load apps into iOS devices, in the very least consumers are paying 30% more for apps if there was a competing App Store on iOS that charged less to load apps.

Edit: whether the Supreme Court will see it this way or not is a whole other issue.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear Apple App Store antitrust dispute

#30

Here’s what I don’t get: in what sense is this a monopoly? Consumers have knowledge that the App Store is the only game in town on an iPhone, and they have the option to buy a different phone if they don’t want to use the App Store. That’s like saying that the manufacturer of my vacuum has a monopoly on vacuum bags.

The article explicitly says “accusing it of breaking federal antitrust laws by monopolizing the market for iPhone apps

I’ve never heard of a market being divided up like that legally. But it’s in the Supreme Court so it can’t be completely without legal merit.

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