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I Used to Be Homeless

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21–30 of 320 posts

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because undocumented workers live in undocumented housing which is to say illegally subdivided dwellings that people who aren't part of that community will not have access to even if they wanted to live in a fire trap.

Yes, it seems that our legislation on wages and housing make it harder for citizens to have a home than it is for undocumented immigrants.

There are already a lot of homeless people working minimum wage jobs. Check any construction site. What's the point of a job if it can't even put a roof over your head?

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#22
>You can start by not judging the homeless.

Instead of flying out the gate accusing people of judging homeless, consider this:

Not everywhere is like San Francisco where you have actual homeless people living in tent/tarp hovels on sidewalks in busy neighborhoods, come to downtown Indy and many of the 'homeless' people you find randomly around are absolutely not homeless and simply know they can make much easier money off of people coming/going from bars and restaurants. The bulk of the properly homeless people congregate around the Wheeler Mission shelter downtown, or are in suburban neighborhoods spread out over 368 (three hundred and sixty eight) square miles.

If there isn't a big event downtown, or it's a slow bar/restaurant night, you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them. If the weather is harsh, you'll notice there's considerably fewer of them.

A few years back we passed a law (here's an article how it was only partially effective https://www.wthr.com/article/panhandling-law-loophole-lets-r... ) here preventing people from pan handling within so many feet of intersections, guess what happened? Within a month they were completely gone, they quickly discovered they couldn't make worthwhile money that far away from the stoplights and stopped. I used to say multiple every day on my commute, now I only ever see the occasional people in suits 'collecting donations' coughbullshitcough for their 'ministry' and they will just pop up at a busy intersection with a long light for an hour or two because they know they have a very short window until they get run off by police.

What I'm getting at is, a lot of 'homeless' people get judged because there are a considerable amount that aren't actually homeless in many places. I honestly believe I've NEVER seen a homeless person on the street until I visited San Francisco in June and saw tent/tarp cities and people passed out on the middle of sidewalks in broad daylight.

Here in Indy the common homeless you'll see have relatively clean nice clothes, will usually have some sort of phone, look well fed, shoes in great condition, and sometimes are considerably overweight. In San Francisco I saw people in filthy clothes, a few people had shoes that were beyond shot and had clearly been worn well beyond their useful life, that were often pushing being underweight. From my window at the Proper I watched a man sleep on the sidewalk all night, when public transportation started running in the morning he got up and paced the sidewalk wrapped Assasin's Creed-style in his blanket with sneakers that looked nearly as old as I am, that guy was legitimately homeless, the feelings I have for the 'homeless' in Indy are nothing what like I felt for that man, watching him for an hour or so over the course of 12 hours left me in a funk for days, the 'homeless' here you walk by thinking "I bet he makes more in a few hours on the weekend than I will in a day of work". Truly homeless people here aren't a common site in public unlike what I saw in a day and a half in San Francisco. There's absolutely a homeless population here but the bulk of 'homeless' that we see are fakers, so we get conditioned to judge.

They're also attempting to pass more legislation to end panhandling downtown as it's still very much a problem https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/14/indy...

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is a lack of social safety nets and a minimum wage not indexed for inflation, not government regulation against squalor.

It could be both/and instead of either/or. The other angle is we as a society have given up on personal responsibility for each other (i.e. lack of social safety net), and instead look for help from big government, which is notoriously inefficient, corruption prone and scammable.

Government is the framework through which we help each other. My tax money goes in, social services should come out. I will not comment on the unfounded generalization ("notoriously inefficient, corruption prone and scammable"). Government is not perfect, but it is not what you describe.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because undocumented workers live in undocumented housing which is to say illegally subdivided dwellings that people who aren't part of that community will not have access to even if they wanted to live in a fire trap.

Yes, it seems that our legislation on wages and housing make it harder for citizens to have a home than it is for undocumented immigrants.

I think this has more to do with a "social safety net" than minimum wage. Immigrants often come to the U.S. knowing other immigrants who are already here. This network of friends and family help them get on their feet. They have a community of people to help them when funds are tight. A couch to sleep to on if you can't make rent, an extra plate at dinner if you don't have enough for groceries this week. Many Americans, particularly those who wind up homeless, don't have any sort of safety net beyond what the government provides. Which is to say, almost nothing.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#25
I live in Central LA (near LACMA / La Brea Tar Pits), and share my neighborhood with dozens of homeless. Most of the homeless in my area are what I would deem "regulars", as they tend to sleep / hang out in the same spots day in and day out.

I can't tell you how they landed in the situation they are in, but I can safely say that 9/10 appear (and I'm not a doctor, so I can't obviously say for certain) to have at minimum a substance abuse issue, which could be masking or exacerbating a mental health disorder. As such, I choose not to give cash to any of the homeless near my home and only ever give food. Having seen first hand with my father and step-mother the pull of substance abuse, I'd rather know any donation I give helps them sustain life, not speed up their demise.

All that being said, I constantly struggle with what is the right moral thing for us to do as a collective society about homelessness. On the one hand, these are cognitive human beings who have a right to self-determination. On the other hand, their self-determination comes with the detriment of my neighborhood. I get harassed a few times a week, mostly just yelling incoherently at me, but sometimes following me. I've had garbage thrown at me as I walked past an encampment. And, I've had my dog come up limping a few times from shattered glass that gets up into her paws.

To me, every community in LA, whether you're in the richest part of Beverly Hills, or the Watts housing projects, deserves clean & safe streets. I'm unconvinced that we can have that while we allow people to live arbitrarily on them day in and day out.

So, what do we do?

[1] We shouldn't send these people to jail, as incarceration is just a revolving door of negative reinforcement.

[2] We should detain individuals indefinitely in mental health and substance abuse facilities, and give those facilities the time it takes to start the process of recovery and treatment (we're talking months, not days or even weeks).

[3] We should provide indefinite housing & treatment for those who are unable to take that next step and fully re-enter society and take care of themselves.

[4] We should repeat the cycle as many times as necessary, given that we know substance abuse relapses are common, and going off medication for those who are mentally ill is a common issue as well.

This is expensive. This is complicated. And, in many states, this wouldn't be legal. We've decided that humans have the right to self-determination (which is a good thing), but we've lost sight of the fact that when a human being is in the grips of an addiction or mental health disorder, they have already lost control. The addiction is what is now determining their behavior, not their own personal choice.

When I tried to get my father hospitalized in 2015 during the final days of his alcohol addiction, he was unable to walk, rarely ate, and spent the entirety of his day in bed drinking. We were finally able to get the local sheriff to pink slip him (72 hour hold) at a hospital in Columbus, where they kept him alive while the alcohol left his system. It took 10 days for the hospital to choose to release him because of how poor his health was, and their primary recommendation was that he go into a nursing home (for context, he was 61 at the time). While he initially refused, we convinced him to give it a try, but that lasted only 48 hours before he returned back home.

Once home, he was able resume his drinking, and was dead 5 months later. Less than three years later, my step-mother would be dead as well from the same issues.

In neither case did I, or the state, have any legal authority to get him into real rehabilitative care. Lawyers reaffirmed that even given his diminishing cognitive state, Ohio's laws made it clear that he had a right to drink himself to drink himself to death. I contend that his addiction was the one making that choice, not him, and that our laws are enabling addiction, rather than defending independence.

While my father was not homeless, that was just a byproduct of his early good fortune. If he had come from lessor means, he would have been on the street for years and potentially died more rapidly. In both cases, the state would have (and did) protected his right to be homeless and drink himself to death.

I recognize how reasonable people can disagree heavily on this topic. I recognize how I very well may be wrong (massively wrong) in my vantage point. However, I can tell you that whatever we are doing as a society right now is not working, and it feels worth trying something new at this point.

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#26
post #16
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "high minimum wage"? Federal minimum wage in the United States is still $7.25 which is not enough for someone to live on, especially in a high cost of living area. I don't understand. https://www.minimum-wage.org/federal

I recently toured for 5 months in the US on my bicycle. My average cost was $30 per day. That included sightseeing, an airline ticket every month and a bus ticket every month. I used Warm Showers and wild camping, so I rarely paid for housing. $7.25 per hour is enough to live on. You just need to work enough hours, do long commutes and be very, very disciplined in all your purchases.

Question for you: at most national/state parks, there are available campsites that cost in the range of $5-$20 per night. These are advertised on their usual websites. These are sites for car camping. However, the couple times I've called, I've asked about primitive camping (aka hike into the woods and camp at the primitive sites), and it turns out that this is free. But the primitive campsites aren't ever discussed on the park websites.

Does this match with your experience? Where did you usually camp?

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'll venture into non-pc territory here, but for some reason immigrants do not seem to have the same homelessness problem, and undocumented workers can work for much less than Americans.

But they usually don't. They work harder, longer, and more efficiently than most americans and there's just as many people paying them fair wages as not. Also, when you have 6 working people in a house, it's a lot easier to justify the costs. How many roommates do you have working full time jobs and contributing to everything in the house?

They're not more efficient. It's a combination of willingness to work for less, longer hours to make up for it, and pooling resources with extended families that enables them to get by

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#28
post #3

I wonder if the high minimum wage makes it harder to employ people who tend to be homeless. I ask because I see many young people homeless these days, and it isn't clear why they are homeless.

Read the article and the links he provided, he touches a little upon why people are homeless. There are numerous causes, including mental illness like schizophrenia, financial woes, losing your housing unexpectedly, losing your job unexpectedly, as well as the scourge of drug addiction. Suffice to say, there are MANY reasons, and your pointing to the "high minimum wage" (you call 7.25 per hour high??) is not sensible…

It would certainly be interesting to see exactly the state of homeless people. If they cannot afford housing individually, yet have jobs, why not band together and rent an apartment?

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#29
post #3

I wonder if the high minimum wage makes it harder to employ people who tend to be homeless. I ask because I see many young people homeless these days, and it isn't clear why they are homeless.

"it isn't clear why they are homeless."

Domestic violence, for starters. "Among families [typically a single mother and child, which account for 37% of the homeless population] that reported domestic violence in the prior five years, 88 percent reported that it contributed to their homelessness a lot." [1]

Other causes include: lack of affordable child care, underemployment, lack of affordable housing, societal neglect of substance use and mental health disorders, inability to find work because of disability or discrimination against those with a criminal record. [2]

Naturally, an adequate social safety net would address many of these issues. Moreover, an effective anti-poverty program (such as an expansion of the child tax credit, or the creation of a social wealth fund), could outright eliminate a few as major contributing factors.

Finally, did you not read the article? One of Mark Anthony's main points is literally: "Not all homeless people are jobless people"

[1] https://www.doorwaysva.org/our-work/education-advocacy/the-f...

[2] https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/what-cau...

Re: I Used to Be Homeless

#30

>You can start by not judging the homeless. Instead of flying out the gate accusing people of judging homeless, consider this: Not everywhere is like San Francisco where you have actual homeless people living in tent/tarp hovels on sidewalks in busy neighborhoods, come to downtown Indy and many of the 'homeless' people you find randomly around are absolutely not homeless and simply know they can make much easier mone…

Here in Colorado we have "actual homeless". Going to a homeless shelter in the winter time provides a great sample. And, there are dangers in those shelters where homeless people are still too scared to stay there.

It's been enlightening to see the surveys of the homeless in my area: who they are, how they got that way, how long they've been homeless.

There are now even prediction models for how unlikely an individual is to be alive in a year if they check 8 of 10 boxes in part of the survey.

The programs I've most been impressed with are the ones creating a stronger resistance layer to falling from having a home to homeless. They save society so much money.

Forming and maintaining relationships, in addition to $, are also important factor. Consider where in your network, homeless people could join and connect with you.

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