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Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

bbc.com

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Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#21

Post by keithpeter »

dogma1138 wrote: post #5
Tomte wrote: post #2

I sure hope the EU hasn't given in to the DUP. But since May won't get anything through parliament, it's probably a moot point.

Corbyn wants Brexit to happen he’ll whip Labour into passing it.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/11/...

YouGov poll on labour voters would suggest caution on Mr Corbyn's part.

I voted remain mainly because I could not see how UK could dis-engage from local markets and just-in-time processes without significant turbulence. Corbyn gave EU 6.5/10 marks, I personally would score around 5.5/10 or 6/10 mainly because of the treatment of Greece.

Basically, like on Slackware when you misconfigure something, 'stormy weather ahead'

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#22

Post by dogma1138 »

digianarchist wrote: post #19
dogma1138 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour’s position should be to oppose Brexit and to remain or rejoin, that is not however Corbyn’s position it never was and for the past 2 years he showed that he is not fit as a leader because he can’t bend his ideals to the will of his party. Corbyn wants socialism, he want to nationalize the industries he wants to get rid of the neoliberal keynesian economics which the EU and every other social democracy in Europ…

> Labour’s position should be to oppose Brexit and to remain or rejoin Why? It hasn't been agreed at conference. There's a party for Remainers that want to ignore the referendum result they're called the Liberal Democrats or the SNP if you are up in Scotland.

Because that’s the majority of it’s members and people who vote for them want, they supposed to be an opposition party.

If Corbyn wants to run his own personal personality cult he should go form another party.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#23

Post by man-and-laptop »

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest:

I'm torn on Brexit.

If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?"

Also, this kind of unrestricted immigration is a historical anomaly. 100s of years ago, it took too long to travel from one place to another, and so people who lived far away were more different to each other. It's not clear whether throwing all the borders open will result in something stable that will last for centuries.

It's also a colossal experiment. If the experiment doesn't work out (see the above paragraph) then 28 countries pay the price. The UK will be deeply affected because it's an immigrant magnet, due to its high living standards, a lot of employment opportunities, and a widely spoken national language; something might happen to Romania and Poland, given that much of their population has apparently emigrated. If the experiment turns out bad, then multiply the impact by 28 for each of the 28 countries.

And there was a recent article on HN about an EU law that says newspaper headlines are going under copyright. Again, mistakes like this affect 500 million people (the citizens of the EU) and 28 different countries. This is a monoculture, which is bad in nature; why not in politics? The Ottoman monoculture might have been one of the things that set the Middle East / North Africa back. For instance, the Ottomans banned printing (in Arabic). How would that have been good for science? And China's another famous empire/union (monoculture), in which one emperor dissolved their fleet, which was the most advanced at the time, impacting their trade, and preventing them from settling elsewhere. How is a European, or even a globalised monoculture, any better?

On the other hand, I can see how the immediate economic impacts of Brexit might be bad.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#25

Post by clort »

dogma1138 wrote: post #5
Tomte wrote: post #2

I sure hope the EU hasn't given in to the DUP. But since May won't get anything through parliament, it's probably a moot point.

Corbyn wants Brexit to happen he’ll whip Labour into passing it.

Thats interesting do you have a reference for that?

There is a lot said about Jeremy Corbyn and I've noticed that a lot of the mainstream media (even left-wing like the Guardian) are very against him and have been vocal about everything he stands for, which I find interesting. This article,

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-referen...

from 2016 says that he thought at that time we should stay in EU and this does align with what I remember of that time. He was widely quoted as saying that although EU needs to change, we should stick with it and help change it from within.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#26

Post by lumberjack »

dogma1138 wrote: post #16
digianarchist wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour's position is to vote against the Chequer's agreement.

Labour’s position should be to oppose Brexit and to remain or rejoin, that is not however Corbyn’s position it never was and for the past 2 years he showed that he is not fit as a leader because he can’t bend his ideals to the will of his party. Corbyn wants socialism, he want to nationalize the industries he wants to get rid of the neoliberal keynesian economics which the EU and every other social democracy in Europ…

Labour is a socialist worker's party. The LibDems exist. Why don't you join them? Why do you want to disenfranchise the socialists and take over the party?

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#27

Post by jcranmer »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?"

That's patently false. The EU doesn't prohibit (justified) immigration restrictions, and that sort of immigrant wave would be grounds for imposing restrictions.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#28

Post by man-and-laptop »

jcranmer wrote: post #27
man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fi…

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#29

Post by Tomte »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

> This, by the way, is a real HN comment as I imagine it. Not just saying something short for peer approval. I know which way HN leans.

Well, I was about to upvote you, because I thought it's unfair your reasonable comment is grayed out. Until I read this. Then I did the opposite.

Downvote complaints become self-fulfilling prophecies.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#30

Post by man-and-laptop »

Tomte wrote: post #29
man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

> This, by the way, is a real HN comment as I imagine it. Not just saying something short for peer approval. I know which way HN leans. Well, I was about to upvote you, because I thought it's unfair your reasonable comment is grayed out. Until I read this. Then I did the opposite. Downvote complaints become self-fulfilling prophecies.

I was commenting on something above. A short comment which I interpreted as a short "I don't like this." which I thought was a bit echo-chamber and lacking in substance.

I take your point though. Not great style.

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