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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#21

Post by napierzaza »

geebee wrote: post #4

I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite = ivy league (or similar institutions). It's true that ivies dominate the top spots of the us news and world report undergraduate college rankings (where no public university cracks the top 20) and tend to do well on rankings of top professional school programs (espec…

It's nice that you want to redefine elite, perhaps to include yourself. But I think he was quite clear he meant the ivy universities such as Harvard and Yale.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#22

Post by napierzaza »

hugh3 wrote: post #7

Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or talentless people, or even lazy people. That's a common enough platitude, but I'm not convinced that it's true. Or rather, it's the sort of thing we like to pretend is true for the sake of a functioning society (since nobody likes to discuss exactly who is worth more than whom) and everybody goes along with it. We'll admit extreme cases (like Bee…

I feel like the author tries to make an argument against an elite paradigm while still having trouble getting outside of it.

"Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or talentless people, or even lazy people."

He would be better off saying that Graduates of elite schools can also be stupid, lazy and talentless. Instead he still reinforces the distinction that you're elite, or one of those three. Either way he comes out and says just that before or after the above quote.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#23

Post by Bricejm »

It's true that the 'Ivy League' graduates many smart individuals, but does the Ivy League actually make them smart. It's the inverse of "garbage in garbage out". A top graduate at an Ivy league school would be just as smart if they went to a small state school. The difference, and where most rankings come from are the connections. Graduates from any Ivy League school generally receive the best job offers (most money) even though there are a thousand other graduates that are just as smart, but didn't go to a name brand school. The Ivy League can only admit so many students. I graduated from a small public university, but that doesn't mean I wasn't challenged during school. I worked extremely hard both in the classroom and at my jobs. The author of this article doesn't have a problem communicating with 'the working class', the author chooses to have a problem.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#24

Post by gammarator »

klochner wrote: post #15

The author got a lot of things right, but I'm suspect of his main thesis - that you can't relate to the lower class if you go to a private school. There are few to no downsides to going to an elite school, other than cost. That said, the benefits of top private schools are overstated. The main benefit goes to those of average intelligence who would get annihilated at a large state school - what the author refers to a…

That's not his main thesis, that's his opening anecdote. His main point is that the experience of elite education can shape one's values and expectations in a way that are negative for the individual and for society.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#25

Post by aik »

hugh3 wrote: post #7

Graduates of elite schools are not more valuable than stupid people, or talentless people, or even lazy people. That's a common enough platitude, but I'm not convinced that it's true. Or rather, it's the sort of thing we like to pretend is true for the sake of a functioning society (since nobody likes to discuss exactly who is worth more than whom) and everybody goes along with it. We'll admit extreme cases (like Bee…

I believe the "platitude" is in all senses practical in that assigning worth is only easy and fully accurate posthumously. Also, no person is so one-dimensional that they can be accurately summed up by the singular adjectives "stupid", "talentless", or "lazy" -- that's just not a realistic situation. A lot of famous people throughout history were in fact poor bums on the street, and are now held in very high regard by all social classes (perhaps it can even be argued that the elite place more worth on them than the lower classes, ironically).

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#26

Post by aik »

klbarry wrote: post #5

Great article. I think he puts downs, "The kid who’s loading up on AP courses junior year or editing three campus publications while double-majoring" a bit too much though. People who are very busy with various projects tend to also be more introspective, in my experience. Good grades can just be indicative of good time management and brightness, which are important in anyone who wants to change the world.

> People who are very busy with various projects tend to also be more introspective.

Interesting, I have always believed the opposite to be true just as often. I'm not sure if I would make the connection that they are more introspective. Introspection requires time alone for oneself to ponder life, not necessarily so busy with external things to never leave room to ponder the inner.

Though I would agree that people like that are generally successful, however whether they are truly happy is another thing completely. My experience is that often they live to meet the expectations of others, which can never bring happiness or lasting satisfaction.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#27

Post by MediaSquirrel »

geebee wrote: post #13
klochner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author doesn't mean Elite in the sense of "good" or "high quality". The Elite he's referring to is the Upper Class. The culture at the top Ivies is nothing like that at any of the schools that you listed. State and tech schools have a lot more class diversity, and while Stanford isn't state or tech, it seems to value diversity more than the Ivies. . . . so the author isn't saying you get a better education (almos…

You're absolutely right that elite = ivy when you're talking about social class, which clearly is what is going on here. What I'm trying to do is put in a claim on the word. Ever read Henry James's "The American"? It's a story from the late 1800s about a wealthy American in Paris who, at one point, seeks to marry a young woman from an aristocratic French family. The brother (I think) informs him that there is a probl…

As 2x UC Berkeley dropout and Columbia alum who financed his education by working as a paramedic in the Bronx, I can unambiguously say that I know EXACTLY what the author is talking about.

The Ivies offer you access to power in a way that even the best state schools never can or will. There is a sense of entitlement, a "welcome to the ruling class" sensibility that permeates the place. The Old Boys Club, indeed.

My experience is mainly New York, but the elite mentality runs deep.

And since switching coasts, I've left that behind. It feels great.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#28

Post by pgbovine »

jasonjei wrote: post #16

A childhood friend who had gone to Harvard invited me to hang out with some Harvard grads in SF two weeks ago. It was strange--as an outsider--to listen to their college stories; they would talk about how they'd drive down to Yale and scream "Harvard, Harvard!" and it was then, I realized, how little I had in common with these grads. I tried to talk to one of the Harvard grads, and asked him what he was doing. Appare…

they would talk about how they'd drive down to Yale and scream "Harvard, Harvard!" and it was then, I realized, how little I had in common with these grads.

that in itself isn't necessarily a sign of 'ivy league' elitism ... it might just be school spirit, like what college students in sports-focused colleges do when there are games against rival colleges.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#29

Post by mitko »

As a student in MIT, I agree with the author that all the "accomplishments" (such as SAT scores, A's) people at top-rated achieve make it harder to not think of oneself as somebody better than the others. Because of the environment and the admiration of many outside people I often times feel intellectually superior to other people, even though I know very well I am not.

I've observed many times that my friends who do not study in top universities might react better in many real-life scenarios than me and many of my MIT classmates.

Also, in one semester off from MIT I learned more things about life than in 4 years at college (where I learned about pressing buttons on a keyboard in order to change what appears on the monitor).

My question to HN is: How "not to take myself so seriously"? I want to be able to enjoy simple things in life without feeling that I am wasting my education.

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