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Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

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Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#21

I visited the top of Mauna Kea a couple of months ago, as a tourist. It is a fascinating place, already so populated with telescopes that it is tough to imagine how adding another (likely built more carefully than older ones) could cause grave damage, interference with other uses of the area, etc. On the other hand: some of the telescopes have been there many years and are probably somewhat obsolete by today's standa…

> Perhaps one of the existing structures could have been removed to make room for the TMT, to lessen conflict.

TMT project will in fact remove three old telescopes.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#22
post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

Thanks, that phrase, > or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom made no sense to me, given that the Hawaiian Kingdom hasn't been a sovereign entity for 125 years.

Well, yes, that's the issue at hand. Probably legally you're just as correct as that issue recently where a bunch of tourists were stomping all over some hills that were sacred to Australian aborigines, but according to the Australian government were legal hiking paths. The most, legally, the aborigines could do was put up a sign saying "these hills are important to us for religious, please don't walk on them."

There's a lot of issues going on right now that draw the majority of my energy (climate change, propagation of hate, etc), so unfortunately I can't bring myself to look into or exert effort into the moral debate of natives' rights, but I think it's a massive issue with huge implications and not nearly so clear-cut as some of the other ones we're dealing with (i.e., climate change is straightforward easy to argue about).

The issue, as I see it:

Take Native Americans in the USA. Outside the written-law rights they have regarding their reservations, one could argue their sovereignty was violated if, say, a plot of land bought in the 1600s (off-reservation) that happened to include a burial mound was developed on. One could also argue that, yes, their sovereignty was violated, but they failed to defend their sovereignty, and so it was relinquished (I don't like this because I think seizing via violence is fucked). One could also argue that they aren't the prime sovereign claim to that land - one tribe might have warred and taken it from another some 500 years prior, so why should the most recent tribe be considered the morally "sovereign" authority on the land?

Which brings me to the point that really concerns me: Taiwan. Populated by natives that were mingling with mainland Chinese for centuries, before a total Japanese takeover. Japanese sovereign territory (by violence). But then, mainland Chinese take over, uh, "back again?" Maybe? Arguable. Either way, another violent sovereign takeover. And finally, a civil war in China between two political parties, with a huge swath of one side fleeing in defeat to Taiwan. Is that even a sovereign takeover, or a political shift? And what of the aborigines, during this time?

Now China is claiming sovereignty over Taiwan, and from one point of view, they kind of do have a claim - Taiwan was technically Mainland Chinese territory, given back after Japan lost the war, and the Communist party did overthrow the Democratic party. However, the Communists did not successfully completely terminate the Democratic party (which is great because who wants more death), so on the other hand, I can see why ROC(Taiwan)'s claim to the island is also legitimate.

Either way, I'm terrified PRC will enforce their self-proclaimed sovereignty over the nation (which is effectively non-existent at present) using violence, which I'm not sure ROC(Taiwan) would be able to withstand, and then I'm worried afterwards the rest of the world will let China get away with it for the slippery sovereign arguments listed above.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#23
I'm glad this got pushed through - environmentalists in Hawaii can be an interesting bunch, and often choose to blockade things that are high profile simply to get their message out, even if the ecological impact is highly minimal. A great example of this in the past was the Hawaii Superferry[1], which was blockaded by environmentalists who said that it would damage the reef. Which while it might be true, standard shipping freighters already travelled the same route and had a higher ecological impact than the lighter dual-hulled ferry, which would have taken a lot of the shipping volume of the more damaging ships. By blocking the ferry, the environmentalists got a lot of publicity, but ultimately the reef ended up suffering more as the ferry got shut down.

With this, the ecological impact will be highly minimal (based on the impact of the existing observatory and the environmental studies done after the plans were drawn up), but it's very high profile so a natural target for them. I'm very glad that the court pushed it through as they had no data to back up their claims that that it would pollute the mountain. The claim that it interfered with traditional and cultural practices has some merit, but that's only because the entire mountain of Mauna Kea is considered sacred - nothing about the peak itself is special. Also, there's already a ton of observatories up there[2], so it wouldn't be changing the status quo in any way. Overall I personally saw their protests as more political than based on arguments with merit.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry [2] https://i.imgur.com/7TjQd52.png

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#24
post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

I think the BBC report that I submitted earlier this morning [0] did a better job of discussing the environmentalists' case. In particular, it linked to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs's civil complaint [1] which is probably the best version of the arguments against the telescope. Summary: the complaint alleges that mismanagement of the telescope site, including poor financial planning and procedural issues, has led to a history of hazardous material spills and car accidents, and that failure to implement the 2009 Comprehensive Management Plan constitutes a breach of contract. There is also a longer explanation of why Mauna Kea is sacred to native Hawaiians.

For the record, I strongly support building the TMT. But the opposition isn't totally illegitimate and I think it's worth covering both sides fairly.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46046864

[1] https://19of32x2yl33s8o4xza0gf14-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#25
post #20
post #3

The actual legal issues in question are barely touched on in the article: > But some environmentalists and Native Hawaiian groups say the spread of observatories on the summit has polluted the mountain, interfering with traditional cultural and religious practices, or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom. The links in the article to the actual decisions are broken (for me at least) The a…

> infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom Is there actually any legally recognized sovereignty for Hawaii or native Hawaiians? Tried doing a quick search but it all came back with an ongoing sovereignty movement but nothing similar to the Native American tribes.

My understanding (based on visiting hawaii as a tourist and not much else) is that no, there's not a US-legally recognized sovereignty, but there is a step back from:

* "They voluntarily joined the US" language

* the repression of culture - in particular but not limited to language, which was apparently ruthlessly quashed for a long while and is enjoying a lot more respect today, relatively speaking.

In a courtroom I doubt this would count for much, but in a war of PR releases it can be significant, and most of what I found about this case was press releases.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#26
post #23

I'm glad this got pushed through - environmentalists in Hawaii can be an interesting bunch, and often choose to blockade things that are high profile simply to get their message out, even if the ecological impact is highly minimal. A great example of this in the past was the Hawaii Superferry[1], which was blockaded by environmentalists who said that it would damage the reef. Which while it might be true, standard sh…

The “SuperFerry” was a huge boondoggle that tried to endrun around the EIS process which dozens of other ferrys around the country seemed to have no trouble complying with. The economics never supported a passenger ferry and the whole thing was a smokescreen to milk DoD.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom Is there actually any legally recognized sovereignty for Hawaii or native Hawaiians? Tried doing a quick search but it all came back with an ongoing sovereignty movement but nothing similar to the Native American tribes.

My understanding (based on visiting hawaii as a tourist and not much else) is that no, there's not a US-legally recognized sovereignty, but there is a step back from: * "They voluntarily joined the US" language * the repression of culture - in particular but not limited to language, which was apparently ruthlessly quashed for a long while and is enjoying a lot more respect today, relatively speaking. In a courtroom I…

There's a rich history of corporations and the us government screwing over Hawaiians. The monarchy was overthrown by a group of businessmen and sugar planters after they forced Queen Liliuokalani to abdicate. Two years later it became a US territory against the wishes of the natives. Then the sugar industry help keep it a territory for 60 years because they could import cheap foreign labor.

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that phrase, > or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom made no sense to me, given that the Hawaiian Kingdom hasn't been a sovereign entity for 125 years.

Well, yes, that's the issue at hand. Probably legally you're just as correct as that issue recently where a bunch of tourists were stomping all over some hills that were sacred to Australian aborigines, but according to the Australian government were legal hiking paths. The most, legally, the aborigines could do was put up a sign saying "these hills are important to us for religious, please don't walk on them." There…

> don't like this because I think seizing via violence is fucked

As you acknowledge in the next paragraph, it’s not like Native Americans weren’t seizing land from each other by violence. So what good does it do to write off the primary ways in which land is acquired in the absence of any applicable legal process?

Re: Hawaii Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Building Thirty Meter Telescope

#30
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that phrase, > or are actually infringing on the sovereignty of the Hawaiian kingdom made no sense to me, given that the Hawaiian Kingdom hasn't been a sovereign entity for 125 years.

Presumably this is somewhat similar to other native american tribes where there are treaties and legal structures that allow them to make their case under that name / formalized what it means today?

The autonomy and sovereignty of continental tribes is severely curtailed by the US claim of plenary authority over them. They are independent nations largely in name only.
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