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The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

nytimes.com

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Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#21

Post by fit2rule »

walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

>How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most technologically advanced products of the NATO military-industrial complex should only be sold to similarly democratic countries?

Its quite difficult, in view of the fact that the largest so-called democracy is committing the same heinous crimes as the nations you select for target of your ire. The USA and its criminal "Coalition of the Willing" has been getting away with the same kind of warfare - unfettered, un-tethered, indiscriminate murder of innocents - for decades.

So until the USA has its own feet held to the flames of justice that we all yearn for, there is no hope for justice for the 500,000 innocent victims of the Wests own, illegal wars.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#22

Post by sandbags »

blattimwind wrote: post #14
walrus01 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK government involvement and complicity is also much larger than the average Commonwealth citizen might think it is. https://www.google.ca/search?q=uk+arms+sales+to+saudi+arabia...

The UK notably is the one country that doesn't adhere to the EU's resolution to suspend arms sales to KSA following the Kashoggi killing.

My understanding is that there has been, and for many years, a 'revolving door' between the Ministry of Defence and the various defence procurement companies & arms manufacturers. So, preserving defence company profits is, I think, a built-in to UK government policy. Further, since the whole area is shrouded in secrecy, it appears to be nigh on impossible to pour sunlight or cold water on what happens in this area.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#23

Post by thefounder »

tim333 wrote: post #6

I'm hoping that after the bad press over killing Khashoggi, the US tells the Saudis to back off on the Yemen war. They are really the only people in a position to do much.

And what are the saudits supposed to do with the 100 billions worth of weapons?

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#24

Post by jacobush »

raverbashing wrote: post #8
_ncuy wrote: post #3

I always wondered why Germans in the 2nd world war didn't do anything to stop Hitler from committing genocide against the jews and others. But now I understand. Perhaps the biggest genocide of this century is happening now in Yemen. Not only we aren't trying to stop it, but we are sponsoring it and profiting from it. History will not be kind to us.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

It varied. Many people knew. But even a few years after the war ended, some people even in neighbouring countries (I am from a neighbouring country) had a hard time believing it could have happened at that scale. I think that changed as TV documentaries become a thing.

Either way, there was and still is great room to look the other way.

But regarding the situation in Germany and occupied areas during the war, you have to understand that by the time the death industry was in full swing, protesting openly in any way could have you yourself summarily executed or imprisoned - with unclear outcome.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#25

Post by Tomte »

raverbashing wrote: post #8
_ncuy wrote: post #3

I always wondered why Germans in the 2nd world war didn't do anything to stop Hitler from committing genocide against the jews and others. But now I understand. Perhaps the biggest genocide of this century is happening now in Yemen. Not only we aren't trying to stop it, but we are sponsoring it and profiting from it. History will not be kind to us.

They didn't because most of them didn't know the details/the scale of what was happening and the extermination on the camps was only "discovered" after the camps were broken up by the opposing armies (depending on the camp) "Discovered" because there were some reports of it, by one or two people, but I'm not sure how seriously they were taken. I guess people concluded/knew some of this was happening, but the breakup…

That's the usual apology of the 60s through 80s, but it's simply not true.

Cardinal von Galen openly preached from the pulpit about the destruction of "unworthy life" (the T4 program) in 1941.

Concentration camp inmates often weren't strictly confined to some walled-off camp, but had to go to work brigade actions all over the countryside, where they had limited contact to the populace, who quite often slipped them a bit of bread or so.

Even when no such work was happening around the populace, it was an open secret. You simply cannot keep a lid on it when tens of thousands of Germans saw something keeping watch over the inmates, delivering goods to the camps, requesting slave labor from the camps, actually building the ovens, conducting trains to the camps, or with soldiers returning from the eastern front.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#26

Post by selestify »

thefounder wrote: post #23
tim333 wrote: post #6

I'm hoping that after the bad press over killing Khashoggi, the US tells the Saudis to back off on the Yemen war. They are really the only people in a position to do much.

And what are the saudits supposed to do with the 100 billions worth of weapons?

That's their problem. They shouldn't be making it anyone else's problem.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#27

Post by empath75 »

langitbiru wrote: post #5
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

Pakistan and Turkey are democratic countries. Just saying. But I get what you meant. Anyway, I don't have a simple solution to this complex problem. Should US sell weapons to India? China?

Maybe we shouldn’t be selling them at all.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#28

Post by godelmachine »

langitbiru wrote: post #5
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

Pakistan and Turkey are democratic countries. Just saying. But I get what you meant. Anyway, I don't have a simple solution to this complex problem. Should US sell weapons to India? China?

India has proved itself to be a politically and militarily responsible country unlike its western neighbour, which floundered embarrassingly at even basic human rights.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#29

Post by dabbledash »

nerflad wrote: post #18
throwaway8879 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you're saying, and agree to a certain extent. But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. And given even more time, it will be history. I've been reading a lot of history recently, and so much of it is pure analysis, all the emotions and morality removed. Perhaps the concept of humanity is closely tied to chronocentrism. Now think about what we did to survive 100k years ago.. Just a…

> But given enough time, all of this will just be statistics. Certainly you are joking. You know you're paraphrasing Stalin right now?

Or maybe “how will history judge us?” is not a useful question to ask when making moral choices.

It assumes our many times descendants will judge our actions at all, and that if they do they will still have values that say wiping out a civilian population in war is evil.

We should stop helping SA to intentionally starve a people to death because we know it to be terrible now.

Re: The Tragedy of Saudi Arabia’s War

#30

Post by jacobush »

gaius wrote: post #16
walrus01 wrote: post #2

In 30 years from now, the US, Canada and UK selling billions of dollars of military equipment, support and training to the saudi regime will be seen as morally equivalent to when the US dropped thousands of tonnes of munitions on Cambodia. Or the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, My Lai massacre, etc. Worthy of war crimes prosecution in The Hague. How hard is it, really, to take a principled stand and say that the most…

The Erdogan government in Turkey? Negatory That would be super awkward, as Turkey is the only place European countries can get F35 engines overhauled. It boggles the mind how that was allowed to happen. In general there should have been two locations for redundancy but in the specific case of Turkey, it's now looking to Russia for its defence needs anyway.

Haha, that's insane. Congrats, Norway. You could have public road take-off and landing Gripen fighter bombers serviced at home for a fraction of the price.

https://www.defenceaviation.com/2010/12/gripens-ability-to-t...

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